Nigel Cassidy: What will keep workers awake at night in 2023? Here's some of the biggest work challenges people say they're facing and how good employers and HR should be responding. I'm Nigel Cassidy and this is the CIPD podcast.

NC: Yes, it's our Look Ahead, my third here. Doesn't time fly? Time to consider just how 2023 might play out for employees and to get some hopefully useful thoughts on how we might best support each other through it all. Now, we hardly need reminding that 2022 brought us a perfect storm of global calamities and political missteps. It left us with a cost of living crisis, a recession, labour strikes, more Covid ill health. Quite a New Year hangover, but never fear, stone cold sober and joining me around the CIPD crystal ball, a varied trio. First, we have an award winning and influential chief people officer from Reward Gateway, new in the job there, it's Nebel Crowhurst. Hello.

Nebel Crowhurst: Hi, Nigel. Nice to be here.

NC: From the home team, the CIPD's thoughtful Membership Director, David D'Souza, the kind of man who can rise above having his talk once described on a speaker feedback form as somewhat refreshing. It's always refreshing David D'Souza. Hello.

David D'Souza: Hello.

NC: And straight from the august pink pages of the Financial Times, it's the work and careers writer, Emma Jacobs. She recently wrote a piece about quiet quitting, which hopefully she won't be doing in the next half hour or so. Welcome, Emma.

Emma Jacobs: Hi.

NC: Now, Emma, employers, people who work for them, nobody knows how long this recession's going to last, how quickly inflation may abate, fuel prices fall back and all that but what we do know is that making a living and supporting the family just got a lot harder.

EJ: It did. It is. It's interesting. Last year I studied a few of the companies that were doing the four day working week trial, and that started in June, which even then had a kind of feeling of optimism. And then as the year ended and the trial ended, everything seemed to change.

NC: Yeah. I mean, I just wonder how you read the, the sort of mindset of, of workers at the moment going forward into 2023.

EJ: Well, I think they're, they're worried. I mean, I think they're, I mean, financially, they're constrained. There's a lot of kind of unknowns, especially about hybrid working in the white collar working world and just uncertainty and not knowing what things will look like. I mean, we've moved very quickly from optimism to worries about how they're going to make money stretch in an inflationary environment and whether they'll get pay increases.

NC: And quite a range of responses, Nebel Crowhurst, if one CIPD poll is any guide. I saw that more than 60% of people are worried about making ends meet. A similar proportion are worried about overwork and stress. And then there's other concerns which we'll get onto as well. So, it's kind of hard to tell what people are going to be feeling and how they're going to react as the year goes on.

NCr: Certainly. It's going to be a very interesting year ahead, and we've, we've already had quite challenging previous few years. And so this just moves us forward into another, another space of, you know, what comes next and, and how, as organisations, do we support our people as best as we possibly can do, specifically around the cost of living? I certainly think there's, there's a, there's a couple of things we should be thinking about within businesses and within the people profession and, and how we support our people. And of course, you know, the cost of living crisis has a, a kind of practical impact. And what advice can we give to people? And what advice can we provide to our people in a business to know how to best manage their finances and how to make their, their money goes as, as far as it can do? But also that mental and emotional impact and the support that we can give people through this period of time because --

NC: I mean, I just wonder whether, is this the kind of support that people expect or would take from their employers because quite frankly, you can't wave a magic wand and make their personal finances or their health better.

NCr: No, you can't wave a magic wand, but, but what we want to do is make sure our employees are as engaged in the work that they're doing. And if, and if we, as an employer, can support them in ways that enables them to have a clear mind on the work that they're doing rather than continuously being concerned about the stuff that's going on in, in personal lives from a financial point of view, I think that's something that definitely can make a difference. And there is no silver bullet. There isn't one solution that an employer can put in place to, to make everybody's problems go away but what we can do is put various things in place that perhaps appeal to different people across your business that can support them in, in the ways that they best need. And actually, I do think employees now do expect a certain amount of support from their employers, and I think we have a responsibility to put in place the best that we can, the context of the businesses that we work in and the types of employees that we have. And, and it will vary from organisation to organisation.

NC: So, David, what sort of things do you think employers can and should be putting into place? I mean, are we talking about HR going into some kind of crisis mode, changing its priorities perhaps vis a vis looking after its people?

DDS: Well, I think, in fairness, the profession is not going into a crisis mode because we only have to look at the past couple of years that we've had --

EJ: Yeah, I was going to say.

DDS: To, to see a couple of things, I think. One that the profession has responded admirably to the challenges that everyone has faced over the last couple of years. Secondly, that there's been a growing awareness of organisations, that it can't just compartmentalise how people are in working outside of work. So, if you went back ten or 15 years, the emotions you were supposed to feel inside work were probably limited to pride, excitement about the five year plan and being inspired by the CEO. I think we now recognise that people are feeling, if we look towards the next year, possibly uncertain, insecure, overwhelmed, fatigued, a whole range of things. So, you get into the questions. You say, what can the employee do? What can HR and people teams do? And I think it's understanding their limitations. I think it's fair to say that not every organisation will be able to respond in terms of financial changes. As you say, you, can't kind of, there isn't a magic wand, but what they can do is they can make sure that within the limits of the agency that they have that they are as supportive and caring and understanding as they can be. And that they provide as much stability for people as is possible within their model to allow people to feel that sense of security.

NC: I wonder, Emma Jacobs, in covering the world of work, whether you've come across any examples of employers who have been able to provide extra support, particularly for people with financial worries.

EJ: I mean, there's obviously, there is a magic bullet which is more money, but there's a kind of, HR has a frustration in that they don't control the pay budget. So, so, there is a kind of, I guess, that I've heard from HR leaders, that there's a feeling of impotency when it comes to how much they can do around pay directly in terms of increasing people's pay packets. I mean, I, I kind of started off quite sceptical about financial wellness because it seemed like another extension of the kind of soft wellness benefits that don't necessarily have any outcome, but, but having talked to people, I think that there is value in providing practical advice. People do get into financial messes that they feel are out of control. And if they, if they feel that their finances are out of control, they can't focus on their job. So, there's a kind of payoff for employers in that respect. And I mean, there are, there are benefits that people can give, interest free loans. They can do some sort of help with travel costs. It, it is difficult because you are kind of dancing around the subject, which is people want more money.

NC: And Nobel Crowhurst, of course, we've had lots of strikes. The mood music from the public sector is, is very troublesome. I just wonder whether that feeds a, an unhappiness, a discontent about people's lack of buying power. I don't know. How do you deal with that as a chief people officer?

NCr: Well, in the industries that I've worked in throughout my career, I've, I've not worked in a public sector or unionised organisations. So, you know, very much on the, on the private sector businesses and, and within those organisations, some of the things that Emma's just mentioned in terms of the portfolio of things that businesses can offer to help people's money go further and also provide them with practical support around their pay. I think we're in a very turbulent period of time with industrial action across the, across the country and I don't think that's going away anytime soon. And perhaps there's something to be said there that as part of those negotiations, yes, of course, it is about pay, but it is also about the, the overall package. It's what comes with pay. It's not just the pound, pounds for the hours that you work, but it's everything else that an organisation offers. It's very much about, you know, terms of employment and, and the support that people get and the environment in, in which people work in that we should be looking at more holistically. And I think that goes across all sectors. People, of course, want to be paid fairly and feel valued for the work that they do, but they can feel valued for the work that they do through a variety of different ways in which the partnership between the employer and the employee can be, can be built up.

NC: And, David, have you any thoughts about how good organisations engender that kind of approach? I mean, clearly, you need to be having more grown up and more frequent conversations with people about how they're feeling and how they're managing.

DDS: Yeah, I, I think it's important to recognise that we can't just divide organisations into good and bad dependent on what they can do because they have different resources and different capabilities. So, there's a, you know, some organisations, as we face into next year, will doubtless have to make structural changes to their workforces, which see people losing their jobs. I don't think it's helpful to demonise those organisations in the same ways that some organisations will be able to pay more to their people and ease some of that pain. And others will not be able to do that without really putting kind of pain into their business model or their budget. So, I, I think getting clear on I guess the three kind of areas that, that people can have challenges is useful. So, one is their finances outside of work. Secondly would be their kind of, their overall wellbeing, how they feel about the world and, and the third one would be the things that are directly within the organisation's control, which might be the calibre of the management that are offered, that's offered to people, the development that's offered to people or pay. And I think organisations working out to what extent they want to be influencing and supporting in those different areas, but also acknowledging the limitations is the key to that. What I wouldn't want anyone from a profession listening to this is to think that if they can't solve all of these problems fully that somehow are failing. Most organisations are facing into a series of tradeoffs, and they're trying to do what they can do. Making sure that you are thinking about what you can do, where you can make a difference is really important. So, you might not be able to offer upper quartile wages, but you might be able to offer upper quartile support. You might be able to offer upper quartile listening capability within your management population for when people have problems. So, I think there's just, I just kind of want to insert that into the conversation because I think it's really important. If you are listening to this, or you're looking at good practice guides and you're thinking, this won't work here, it's important to recognise that there are many organisations that'll be the case for as well.

NC: I'd like to pick up about the risk of people losing their jobs during this coming year because this is happening at the same time as we still have a pretty tight labour market. We know there's a labour shortage. I think it's something like half a million fewer people in the workforce since the pandemic. And of course, this wasn't how we were always taught economics. I mean, when you had a recession, you had loads more jobs suddenly become available. I just wonder if you have any thoughts about how this might play out in a year when of course we, we don't know how long the recession will last, how deep it will be.

DDS: I think this is really interesting to discuss. I think the, the key in a time like this for so much instability is to go, what things can we reasonably anticipate? So, I think it's utterly unfair to go, what, could you give me the week the recession will finish? But equally, to say that we're, we're, we're going to have some really challenging times financially, and it'll probably last for a sustained period, we're going to have some people lose their jobs and their livelihoods within this, so how are we going to support societally? How are organisations going to take care of them as they go through it? We'll have some people who don't lose their jobs, but feel incredibly stressed by things outside, outside of work, what can we do there? I think again, it's understanding the limitations of what you can do, but also going, we have agency over a number of things as an organisation, how can we make that happen? So, there will probably be, and no one wants to hear this, at least three or four more crises that gets chucked into the next year because that's the one thing we can never anticipate is what are the other things that will happen for this or an intersection between some of the problems that we've already had and resurgence of COVID? All of those things. Organisations need to be, I hate to use the word agile because it's, you know, slightly sound bity but they need to be ready to respond, but they also need to be anticipating some of those things and working as well as they can how well they'll respond. Now, the good news, I'll come back to it, is that we've had two plus years of crises and organisations have built those muscles to go, we've got a problem, how are we going to respond to it? We've got a problem, let's experiment with a response to it and see if that works and if not, we'll change track. We need to carry that skill and that attitude and those capabilities into what will be another uncertain year.

NC: Now, in this uncertain year to come, Nebel Crowhurst, of course, one thing some people might do as a solution to their financial problems might be to seek a second job or some kind of side hustle to make ends meet. Is that something which HR needs to think about as to how it will be responding to that? Of course, people are working at home. We can talk a bit more about hybrid working in a minute and how that's playing out, but I mean, different things happen, don't they, during times like this?

NCr: Yeah, that's a really interesting question and something that perhaps does need to be considered as we move into the next year or two. I think there's a dual responsibility. You know, if, if you're an employee who's, who's choosing to take on a, a second job, or as you say, a side hustle, you need to be mindful and cognisant of whether you are able to do a good job in, in both of those roles. You need to make sure that you are taking responsibility from a, from any kind of tax perspective, which is, you know, not the most fun subject, but something that's important for people to be aware of. And if in organisations we're starting to see more and more of that happening, we also need to be making sure that both points stand, you know, are, are, are people able to deliver in their role for the, for the organisation that an individual's working for and is there any additional advice that we can be giving to people so that they make sure that they aren't in a position where they've got issues from a, from a tax point of view? It's a difficult one to necessarily be able to support as an employer if an employee, you know, is, is working in different organisations to what you know, your, you're supporting, and you're responsible for. And there is also another, you know, fairly dull answer, but an important one, nonetheless. If, if there are employees listening to this thinking, OK, that's something I want to enter into is to check their employment contract because more often than not within employment contracts, there is terms in there about solely working for, for a singular employer.

NC: Of course, another way of responding to events for many people, I mean, so far, Emma Jacobs, has been overworking, you know, to make a mark within an organisation to get on in your career. So, if people respond in that way going forward, I mean, there is a risk of more burnout here, isn't there, for people?

EJ: Well, I think, I mean, as David talked about earlier, I mean, we have been in a kind of, I mean, permacrisis has been overused, but I mean, at least, you know, that, that people have been on the brink of feeling knackered by the whole pandemic. And then homeworking and then back and forth and what, you know, and, and business changes and reaction to the crisis, crises. And so, even just the kind of dealing with so much change and upheaval and different priorities and kind of juggling different types of work. And, and also in the pandemic, there were people doing homeschooling and there was, you know, there were all kinds of demands placed on people and then people covering other people's work. So, you know, whether we've caught up, even with that. I mean, this, there is a kind of worry that people are just burnt out by so much permanent crisis, let alone overwork. I mean, overwork is one response to anxiety and feeling nervous about losing your job and having to do more with less and, and all the rest of it. But I mean, it is something that employers have been conscious of in the pandemic but I, my sense is, is that they're kind of less tolerant of employees' complaints as, as we kind of continue on. I mean, I think that, you know, during the pandemic, we had a big time of empathy and understanding. And, you know, people were worried about their relatives and homeschooling demands and so on. And then, you know, there's a certain patience that seems to have run out where some employers are kind of cracking down more, and I don't know how it will pan out.

NC: I was wondering, David D'Souza, whether that might be one reason for something Emma Jacobs I know has written about very recently, which is another word of the year, which is quiet quitting, you know, this idea of, you know, in the face of all this, we've been hearing from Emma, just, just working to contract and, and not doing anymore. It may be harder for an organisation worried about it, dealing with lower productivity to deal with when an employee is working partly or wholly at home.

DDS: I could talk for hours about quiet quitting.

EJ: Me too.

DDS: No, it's, it's interesting but I, I, I think there's a few things. There are some areas and ways of working where it's definitely higher, harder to measure productivity output. So, if you are working in a factory and I need you to make a certain number of things a day, it's quite obvious, you know, what's happening within that space. It is harder in some knowledge work to do that. I think it is therefore easier to reduce the amount of effort and maybe that not get picked up as evident and obviously. I don't think that is a compelling argument to get people back in. I think we need to look at flexibility. We need to look at trust, but we also do need to look at being really good at measuring output and outcomes and setting clear expectations for people. I think the more interesting question is, how do you understand when people are tired? How do you understand when people are fatigued? How do you understand when people are less committed because that's at the heart of a good management relationship, and that's what you need to help people flourish and develop and get the best as an employer from people. 

It's not, you know, how do you monitor them more? It's about how do you better understand and work together? And the profession has got an absolutely key role to play in that. It's got an absolutely key role to keep looking at the evidence for the pros and cons of working in different ways and work with leadership teams in different workplaces, different environments, because I know we always drift to work from home, but a lot of people, that's not an effort, you know, that's not an option for them anyway. And keep making sure that we're making informed choices that benefit ideally the employer and the employee for that kind of joint success and productivity in some really quite challenging times. 

And the other thing I'll just add to that is, HR professionals are people too, and they're, they're employees too. And it's been an incredibly tough couple of years. As a professional body, we launched a helpline and support services. And we've seen those used, and I'm glad they've been used, but they've been used more than I would like. The other thing that people need to do over the next couple of years if they work in the profession is look at that self-care piece as well because they've got all of the challenges that other people have, and they've got the challenge of looking after people in those situations too. And that is tiring and that is challenging. And that is relentless.

NCr: I think from an overall wellbeing perspective, you know, all of the different things we've talked about already from a, we've got the financial piece, which actually, you know, really sits under the umbrella of wellbeing. And organisations will have, for many years, done the best that they can do, like David was saying before, within the, the realms of their budgets or resources to be able to put in place, you know, wellbeing programs or, or things to support people. I think, I think one of the things just to bear in mind that's really important is you can put in place as many things as you wish. If those things that you put in place are not what people in the organisation need or that don't resonate with them, or you don't fully communicate effectively about the things that are available to people, it kind of gets lost. So, I think there's definitely something to be thought about in terms of really helping people to see what's available to them. And there's a disconnect between HR teams and people, professionals thinking that we are doing a really great job at providing lots of different tools and support mechanisms for our people and our people not necessarily engaging with it. And we need to be asking ourselves why that is. Is it that we're providing the wrong things, that they're not necessarily things that people need, but we think we're doing a great job by, you know, like Emma was saying before, providing things like, you know, salary loans, those kinds of things. If that's not needed and people aren't engaging in it, then, then why are we doing it? But we can kind of give ourselves a, a pat on the back to say that we've done it in HR, or is it that we're simply not communicating effectively within the business, so people aren't aware of what's available to them? And I think that's part of what we should be considering when we're creating solutions around wellbeing as a whole, whether that's financial wellbeing, you know, general health, all of those types of things. 

And there's certainly evidence that supports that. You know, I, I'm, I feel very privileged to have joined an organisation that's got some great wellbeing initiatives already in place at, at Reward Gateway, which is, which is fantastic. But on top of that, you know, we do our own research in the industry and, you know, the, the, the recent employee engagement trends report that we've run definitely highlights this disconnect between what HR professionals think that we've delivered versus what employees are feeling like there is available to them.

NC: I, I was mildly horrified to read that the big trend for the next year with rewards and all that is gamification. And the last thing I want to do is to play games with my employer, but perhaps I've got that wrong.

DDS: I know Emma's kind of written brilliantly on it the past, but I think there's something to be said, and I think it's just been touched on there, around this isn't about how do you have a series of initiatives. This is about how do you really make a difference to people. So, if the problem that you have is that people are working for a boss who's an absolute arse, a mindfulness app is not going to solve that problem for you. If the problem that you have is that someone's job is fundamentally poorly designed and there aren't enough hours in the day, a helpline is not going to be the solution for them. So, it's making sure that at the core of your business, the job design, the expectations of people, the support that they have is absolutely solid in there, the fundamentals are really good, and then going, are there are other things we can do to help, rather than mistaking, as was described there, a kind of, a flurry of activity and things that hopefully will make things better for actually the core of solving the fact that people are feeling, as we said, probably quite insecure, quite tired, quite challenged, and in need of coming into workplaces where actually they can be at their best each day and flourish. And we've gone through a long period of people's careers at times stagnating or them being in positions where it's difficult to develop. People are starting to now look onward and upward because we've been in this position for quite a while now. And we've also got to look at how we develop people going forward. So, there's a bit around job design, a bit around learning and development and support, a bit around managerial support and all of those need to come to the floor in the next year for whatever the challenges are that we're facing into.

NC: OK. And another big change, Emma Jacobs, for the coming year, flexible working. People will have the right to request this from day one. That's soon going to become law, but some people might feel, whereas they did before, that they wanted to reduce their hours, that maybe we're going to see a, a drop in requests for flexibility, for flexible working. Do you think it might, maybe more people might want to revert back to full time hours just because they have to?

EJ: I mean, flexible working means all sorts of things in terms of, you know, place and our time of day that you work and, and how you kind of conduct your hours, you compress them. You know, there's all sorts of flexibility. So, so, I think to think of it as part time work would be wrong and also, I guess it's whether people feel confident about being able to ask. And I guess that the day one right to request it gives people more confidence to ask it. Whether they'll get it is another matter or whether they even want to ask it in that condition. I mean, I know that several people have spoken out about it. James Dyson came out on the first day I think that it was announced and said, you know, that people have gone too soft. I mean, James Dyson can still say no to flexible working. It doesn't mean that he has to go through with it. And so, I think that people will feel nervous if they feel that their job's on the line, that they, about demanding things that, that they think the employer won't want to give them. But I do think that there has been a change in the last two years about how we see flexibility. And I, I, I think that ongoing, there is tension between employer and employee as to how they interpret it and whether, whether that can be resolved, I think is one of the kind of the biggest issues going ahead. I mean, particularly, we'll come to it but particularly with hybrid working, I guess.

NC: Clearly, Nebel Crowhurst, this is here to stay, and it's been playing out since the pandemic. Any thoughts on how organisations can just make that work better?

NCr: Well, it's quite interesting. I'll just lead on from, from Emma's points there about the fact that flexibility means different things to different people. So, when you think about the context of the right to request from, from the first day of employment, I, you know, I, I see that in the bucket of formal flexible work requests, which are where you are, you know, essentially asking for a change in your terms of employment and, and your contract with the, with the business. Flexibility in general is much broader than that. And I do wonder whether those formal flexible work requests will start to decline somewhat because general flexibility and hybrid working means that people can adapt and fit their work commitments and life commitments in and around one another much more easily. So, I think that the landscape has changed quite considerably. And I think it's beneficial for both organisations and for individuals. If we can foster environments in which people are, you know, trusted, and you've got a real adult mindset, and you enable people to be responsible for getting their work done in a work pattern that works best for them, I think that's a far healthier way of working than, you know, having real cultures of presenteeism. Now, of course, that's not to say that's going to work brilliantly well for certain types of roles that are perhaps, you know, customer facing, front facing type roles and, and every organisation has got different types of workforces. But I do wonder whether there'll be a bit of a shift in those formal requests coming through to us because we are affording people much more autonomy in their day to day work.

NC: OK. Now, as we sort of try and bring this to a close, I'd like to just get a sense from all of you about how you best continue work on opening up lines of communication with people, so you do understand some of these things that they're going to, and then produce the best response that you can. David?

DDS: There's a range of ways organisations can communicate with people and there are systems that make that very easy, but it's never going to replace, I don't think, the one on one conversations that happen within organisations to understand what's really happening with people on a deep level. The other thing just touching on what we've discussed earlier is making sure that if you do have a great idea as to something that might help, maybe you want to, before you launch that, check that with the people that you're attempting to solve the problem for and go, we're thinking about doing this, is this the kind of thing that would really make a difference? And if organisations can be that nimble, they can listen hard, but they can also commit to some of the fundamentals that we spoke about and I have to say I'm delighted because we lobbied for on campaign for that right to ask on day one, that that's been passed in law. But thinking flexibly about job design as well as hours and some of the other component parts then organisations will be best placed to support people through the next year, but it's, it's listening, responding, checking, experimenting, going again, that will see us through it.

NC: And Emma, if companies are not doing enough, if there's a sense that employees are unhappy and their needs aren't being met, any suggestions as to what you can do?

EJ: I mean, I guess, the thing that I keep seeing from employers is a kind of lack of curiosity or kind of the worst employers, is the, is a lack of curiosity about why their employees are doing things like staying at home. I mean, hybrid working is, is proving to be a kind of area of tension between some employers who want their staff back more and employees who want to be at home more, but there's never a kind of enquiry into why they don't want to be at home, why they don't come into the office. The assumption is always that they don't want to commute or they don't, or they're lazy, or they just prefer to be at home doing yoga. And actually, you know, it might be that they don't feel there's any value in being in the office. You know, it might be great for the boss, you know, because they've got their clique of people and the people that feel a real need to be in and to show their face and want to kind of connect with other people will be coming into the office. But those people that feel excluded or there's no real value in them being there, there's no curiosity about how that could change. And I do, I do find that quite frustrating. And, and even to go onto the kind of side hustles and second jobs, it's certainly about more money, but it might be that their job isn't that satisfying and they're getting more reward and creativity or more kind of progress or autonomy, or kind of a chance to develop by doing something else and that their day job is actually not that satisfying. So, I just, I think to start kind of problems, to start looking at problems with a kind of curiosity, I guess, would be my biggest thing.

NC: And finally, Nebel Crowhurst, how are you going to play conversations with your people in the next year?

NCr: I think the points that David and Emma have made are really valid and I, and I guess to, to add to that, it's, it is very much about listening and two way conversation in the organisation. So, like we said before, just pushing things out to the business and, and expecting people to, to latch onto them is, is not going to work. So, there needs to be mechanisms to enable people to feel like they've got their voice, encourage people to speak up in your business and truly listen to what they're saying and take action upon that, to show to them that you're listening and that you are adapting to the ever changing business needs and employee needs that we have in our organisations.

NC: Absolutely. Of course, keeping the workforce healthy both mentally and physically is surely from what we've heard from people today is going to be the key to combating labour shortages and raising productivity. A big thank you to all three of our excellent Look Ahead guests on this first podcast of 2023, that's Emma Jacobs of the Financial Times, Nebel Crowhurst from Reward Gateway and the CIPD's own David D'Souza. We are lining up lots more topics that you won't want to miss in the months ahead, so do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and indeed pass on a link to anyone in or out the CIPD who you think would enjoy our monthly discussions but until next time for me, Nigel Cassidy and all of the podcast team, let me wish you a very happy New Year.