0:02
so good afternoon this is Tina here from the CIPD and this is a rerecord of a webinar that
0:09
took place on the 11th of March we re recording because we encountered some
0:15
technical difficulties with the record from that session so for those of you
0:21
that are watching this rather than just listening please remember that it means that during this record the poll and the
0:28
chat functions are not available I'll also be referring to a survey that
0:33
was given to the participants of the last webinar and making reference to that during presentation today
0:41
so I'll be managing our time during this webinar and I'll shortly introduce you to my other guest speaker you will see
0:49
that there's an email address at the end we'd love to hear from you and anything that we've spoken about today of any
0:56
interest in ethics whistleblowing and speak up so getting us started I'll
1:02
introduce our next speaker so John Cunningham um who I will say
1:10
hello shortly he's a Business Development Director at protect so John
1:15
has spent ten years working at John balance in a variety of management and business development roles and joined
1:22
protect in 2012 as business development director John
1:27
has responsibility for protects work with organizations lacking them to improve their own whistleblowing
1:34
arrangements so John's going to be a fantastic contributor to our discussion today on whistleblowing gun speak up you
1:41
don't say hello John everybody good to be here and I'm Tina Russell so I work
1:48
at the copd and the Professional Conduct an ethics lead I've been working in the professional body field for 16 years now
1:55
prior to that had a career in financial services and at the crpd
2:00
I've managed the chartered up grading process in membership CPD and also
2:06
developed and implemented our academic membership route which now has over 450
2:11
members and for the last few years been leading work on our code of conduct
2:16
and on ethics so in today's webinar these are what
2:22
we're going to be covering so we're going to be going through speaker parents or other organizations the
2:29
benefit to speak up facilities getting it wrong and getting it right and
2:35
looking at the ethical aspects and dilemmas to do speak up on whistleblowing talking through
2:41
successful implementation and a checklist and then covering questions that came up from the original webinar
2:49
so the focus today is on the ethical aspects of dilemmas around speaker from
2:56
whistleblowing so last year the copd launched this report what an apples bug
3:04
barrels and sticky situations and it's a review of academic literature that
3:11
examines unethical workplace behavior and looks at what influences ethical
3:17
behavior work findings include own things such as rotten apples so the
3:25
individual characteristics of how people behave and such as aspects of their
3:30
personality or mood and how that can affect our ethical practice on an
3:36
organization level so the bad barrels it looked at organization culture and
3:43
climate and that they can influence on ethical behavior and so for example
3:48
putting profit above safety and finally in sticky situations the aspects of jobs
3:56
can impact ethical behavior so for example time pressure and isolated
4:03
decision-making so the report highlights what can be done in the workplace to manage an
4:09
ethical behavior and address the risks so on an individual level that could be
4:15
that we're frustrated employees may be more likely to act unethically or
4:20
fortunately how and there is a need to role model positive management practices
4:26
and moral leadership to really address counterproductive work behavior on an
4:33
organization level how to establish an ethical climate so looking at things
4:39
like accountability through checks and balances of decision-making and really
4:44
honing in on isolated decision-making and on the situation level looking at
4:50
job design to redress those areas of high pressure and time pressure and to
4:57
support this report the COPD launched last year the ethics at work an
5:02
employer's guide now this guide calls on the nine action areas from the report
5:09
and includes examples and case studies it highlights red flags gives tips on
5:17
what you can do to address those areas so that includes some checklists
5:22
flowchart for example on how to develop an embed a code of ethics and the topics
5:29
covered in this guide a climate code of ethics fairness personality and mood job
5:36
design targets on the ward speak up which we're covering today
5:41
accountability and communication the guide also has a list of further
5:47
resources for those that are interested in developing more on ethics so as we
5:53
said today we're focusing on the topic from this guide speak up and at the CI
5:59
PD as with other professional bodies we have a set of standards that feed our
6:04
membership criteria and their qualifications and our standards are known as the new profession map and this
6:11
was launched in 2018 and as with other profession the map includes ethical behavior but
6:20
there are lots of other areas within the standards based on the knowledge requirements and on the behavior
6:26
requirements where ethical aspects Accords of the fall so for example
6:33
looking at how we have an expectation that unethical behavior is called out
6:40
and that colleagues are challenged but how to do that in a positive and constructive way and an influential way
6:48
and to support these standards not just with the membership and the
6:54
qualifications as here patty has a suite of courses for members there are free courses and that can be accessed online
7:02
and and they cover all of the areas in the map and I'd particularly point
7:07
people towards professional courage and influence because that's a key area of
7:12
our standards as well as the ethical practice behavior and even in working in
7:18
inclusively that section actually has an inclusion on things about addressing
7:25
people's and getting the range of diverse views and perspectives and how
7:31
we expect our members and professionals to be open to getting that feedback and
7:36
speak up is a great way to enable employee voice what the guide picked up
7:43
on is that unethical behavior can cause absent either tardiness rule-breaking
7:50
disengagement defensiveness it can increase attrition and it can cause
7:58
withholding information so it's really those matters and those areas that are
8:04
very important to people managers and the people profession white such an importance to the CIPD
8:12
this model here is borrowed from the Frances and Murphy Bock global business
8:18
ethics which is referenced at the end of these slides and it's a useful model to
8:24
provoke some discussion in organizations in locking up where do we see ourselves on this ethical scale so it's the ridin
8:33
back and mob in 1991 model and you'll see that at the top you have number five
8:39
ethical organizations so that could be for example TOMS shoes and they're an
8:45
organization for every one pair of shoes that are sold they give away another
8:50
pair of shoes to areas that are impoverished and have so far given away
8:56
35 million shoes so that's at level five and then you get to level one a moral
9:04
organizations so that could be for example organizations that are coercing
9:11
people into new terms and conditions and not following a caste guidelines or organizations that use bribes to procure
9:19
business and what we suggest is that it's possible for an organization to use
9:26
this model to identify where it probably sits and to aspire to obviously progress
9:32
some may never shift and there are organizations that are constantly
9:37
referred to in the media so and there are some examples of for example at
9:43
number two the legalistic so this is where you focus on compliance with the
9:49
law now that may well be that for example and in paying tax you follow the
9:56
requirements and you follow according to the law but not the spirit of the law and and use that to perhaps not take an
10:04
ethical position and another example that's widely quoted is the Ford Pinto
10:09
so that was a vehicle that Ford and actually the car met compliance
10:15
standards but it was prone to exploding and unfortunately some people had died
10:20
from that situation so I mentioned at the beginning that we
10:27
issued a survey to people who participated in the webinar we had over a hundred participants in our webinar
10:34
which was fantastic and this question asks which department has responsibility
10:40
for speak up arrangements in your organization so you will see here that at 50 percent the outright winner is HR
10:50
coming in second or glad to see that it's at least second was the ethics
10:55
department and then after that you have strategy and the senior leadership team
11:01
or board and other at you know in a joint place at number three and so John
11:08
I don't know if you wanted to say anything Khan on this but just add that you know for from our perspective in
11:17
terms of speak up and whistleblowing facilities where HR have that
11:23
responsibility may actually contribute to people's confusion on what matters
11:28
should actually be reported through these facilities because they're not intended to be for example an equivalent
11:36
of a grievance process and in fact when you actually investigate reports that
11:42
have been made it may well be that there's a need for some disciplinary action which is where you know that the
11:48
HR department would step in so there's some real merit in actually separating this on the HR function I agree with
11:58
that see nothing it's it's interesting to see the clear winner they're actually in HR with our client base our business
12:05
client base we'd probably see some of the other areas a little bit higher than
12:10
they are they're including internal audit for example that might be more specifically about whistleblowing rather
12:16
than wider speak up but I think you make some good points about HR there as well
12:22
so we see legal and actually the key thing is you know often one department will have day-to-day responsibilities
12:29
but in fact you know a lot of these departments will have some involvement and it's in all of those departments
12:36
interest to be up to speed with with what the current arrangements are indeed indeed
12:42
thank you so over to you John okay thanks Tina oh really good to be here
12:50
I'm talking about how was the Boeing it's in the wider speak of an ethics
12:55
scene so just to introduce who we are and what we do so there's a single-issue
13:04
charity set up back in 1983 and we focused purely on on whistleblowing and
13:10
we did it in three key ways we support individuals through a confidential
13:16
advice line and that's really at the heart of what we do and why our founder sets us up although all those years ago
13:22
and with that advice line the calls are under legal privilege so the information
13:28
doesn't go anywhere without the express consent of the caller and what we're trying to do is is understand what the
13:35
risk and the wrongdoing is and give tailored advice on the individual situation to empower them to make an
13:44
informed decision what they want to do next so it's an advice line not a reporting line and our key our key focuses is
13:53
helping that person get that concern raised effectively so it can be acted on with the right race to the right person
14:00
but also in a way that's safe to do so for for the caller the other way we
14:07
support wider society is working with organizations on their whistleblowing
14:12
arrangements and we do that to do training so straining senior managers training line managers training staff in
14:20
what whistleblowing is and also providing consultancy services and really helping organizations embed and
14:27
improve their arrangements and in the third area of the charity is our policy
14:33
work and that's campaigning for improved legislation so trying to improve the
14:40
Public Interest Disclosure Act which is two whistleblowing legislation and also responding to individual sector
14:47
consultations around whistleblowing thank you to the next slide please - I
14:52
think that's really important so what what do we mean by whistleblowing so this is our definition different
15:00
people do have slightly different definitions but you can see there it's a worker raising a concern about
15:06
wrongdoing risk or malpractice that affect others with somebody in authority and there's a few key phrases there so
15:14
what's it about workers it's not about members of the public raising concerns it's not about service
15:20
users those people obviously have some serious concerns and it's important to
15:25
raise them but there are more appropriate channels for those workers are inside the organization that the
15:33
eyes and the ears of the organization and they'll come across wrongdoing but also risk their risk is a key word it
15:40
doesn't have to be wrongdoing this occurring it can be a risk of wrongdoing and it's important for organizations to
15:48
encourage their workers to to raise those concerns that they can be acted on
15:55
ok great so another question that we asked in the survey before the webinar was what
16:02
channels are offered in your organization and you'll see a range of channels there which is not intended to
16:08
be an exhaustive list so number one in terms of responses here was an email
16:16
address at 57% of the responses and then next to that was a staff survey tool and
16:24
so that was considered a way that employees can speak up and then we next
16:29
had direct - and the direct - to line managers or areas of concern and then
16:38
after that was a telephone line so that's and that's quite lower in the ranking from this survey and then after
16:46
that was staff representatives so having designated individuals in an
16:51
organization to whom people can raise concerns and then lastly at 7 percent
16:56
was having an app for speak up any comments on that job
17:03
just a couple really I mean I think it's it's interesting that the highest one there was organizations having an email
17:10
address and that that's very easy for people to set up or for the organization to set up I think some things to bear in
17:16
mind there are you know a lot of stuff might be slightly wary of an email
17:22
address especially if it's you know speak up at all whistle blowing at all raise concerns at
17:29
and thinking about well who who's picking up this email so either communications are key which
17:36
I'll get onto a bit later and many organizations have had telephone lines
17:41
either internal or external because people do often want to talk through their back their concern with with a you
17:50
know with a human has a line rather than just firing off an email you know I thought it was a really important point
17:56
that you made with the service that you provide for organizations you can offer a whistle blowing facility and that it
18:04
has legal privilege which is really good benefit for the workforce yeah
18:11
absolutely I mean I think the way you know we're we complement internal
18:16
arrangement so you know we don't say we are replacement for anybody's internal arrangements it's there in addition to
18:23
those internal arrangements for those workers who you might not be sure how or even whether to raise the concern they
18:30
have and we can talk them through that great so over to you okay so we've done
18:38
as I said we've basically on whistleblowing and there were lot
18:44
research with with individuals and also organizations and I got a couple of
18:49
slides here just just highlighting some it's some interesting statistics so a
18:54
few years ago we did some some work with organizations with ey and you can see
19:01
there that the vast majority of organizations have Apple whistleblowing
19:06
some sort of whistleblowing arrangements and that's despite the fact there's no legal requirement across the board to to
19:14
have arrangements or a policy place and sectors require it regulators require it but in general terms that
19:22
there's no reward requirement to do so clearly organizations feel they should
19:28
at 93% however the flip side to that is it's
19:33
less than half of UK workers are aware of their own policy so it's really
19:38
important that this isn't seen as a tick box exercise that you know we've got our whistleblowing policy in place and its
19:45
job done you know it's only as good as how many people are aware of it I'm trusted which I'll talk about a bit
19:52
later and also the same same people who were answering those questions said that
19:58
one in three one and three of them responded saying we've got arrangements but we don't think they're very
20:04
effective I say one or three say they are ineffective so only two and three
20:09
states say they're effective and then the next so information really is is
20:17
also of concern that over half don't train designated contacts so in in
20:23
policies it'll often say go and talk to my manager first and if not and there are these other named contacts in the
20:30
business to talk to but a lot of those don't get trained on on receiving concerns and that's really important
20:37
because people you know when people go to to raise a concern with somebody if
20:42
they expect it to be handled in it in an effective way and it's a contacts aren't trained then it's not a good reflection
20:51
on the organization and the individual and well go silent at that point which
20:56
other one which I'll come back to I think you mentioned Tina Perth the HR function and perhaps confusion and you
21:04
can see there that 44 percent confused whistleblowing which is a wider public
21:11
interest concern with a private employment issue as such as grievance so
21:18
there's still a lot of confusion between the two that are gray areas in the middle and we could probably have a
21:25
whole webinar on that but it again it's and in communications and in policy
21:33
wording that it's very clear which channel is best for which type of concern and the last one again is is
21:41
really about you know the tone from the talkin and how important it is here for leaders in the organization to to
21:49
promote this message that they do want to hear about concerns from their staff and that it will be looked after and I
21:56
were just you know to your point John also add that in in my work which is managing our code of Professional
22:03
Conduct we are the professional body for HR and learning and development and people do
22:09
try to bring complaints to us code of conduct complaints that are employment
22:15
disputes that they're trying to use this as an a Cass and I've never a casa have
22:22
that you know certainly you know quite a number of over cases going to them so both highlight the real needs that
22:30
individuals aren't being able to deal with their matters or resolve their disputes at the organization level yeah
22:40
okay I just wanted to highlight and when
22:47
you're looking at ethics there are a number of models and philosophy that you
22:54
can weave in but two particular schools that I wanted to highlight here and so
22:59
in the first case utilitarianism which is looking at the consequences of
23:06
practices so you know really looking at the impact on people's welfare and
23:13
secondly deontology where there's a focus on rules and that there may be a
23:20
regards that any breach of a rule however the degree is a departure and
23:27
therefore an ethical conduct and wanted to highlight both of those because I think they really need to be thought
23:33
about at the organization level in terms of the workforce and both could actually
23:39
apply to areas of concern individuals wish to raise so whether
23:45
that's on a one-to-one therefore you know their experience in the workplace or even on the organization level or
23:52
indeed the impact the organization is having outside so with its customers and with the community and so on and they're
23:59
both areas to think about in terms of what you were accommodating in your speaker facilities at an organisation
24:05
and a typical way that may be manifested is his information shared quite through
24:15
an internal comms department or do you have a designated resource that is
24:20
responsible for Asian community issuing communication on strategy and on
24:25
business performance or his information only shared on a need-to-know basis for example and back to you John okay thanks
24:35
so some of the benefits in and really he's a whistleblowing and then and we
24:41
discussed obviously TuneIn and they do apply to wider speak up so you know
24:48
looking at how good whistleblowing and speak of our agents benefit a number of
24:54
stakeholders so it can of course and ain't no particular order here it
25:01
detects wrongdoing it's an early warning flag and and workers are the eyes and ears of your organization they're the
25:07
ones at the front behind and they're the ones that are going to see or suspect wrongdoing that that you want to hear
25:13
about it and if you've got the right culture where your staff feel able and
25:19
comfortable speaking up knowing you'll support them and look after them then it helps you hear about wrongdoing and a
25:26
much earlier stage allowing you to act and stop the wrongdoing before it escalates into something else second key
25:34
benefit really is that it can also do wrongdoing if you've got that culture in place then workers who may be tempted to
25:42
do something might hesitate because they know it'll be called out there's two key
25:48
benefits there at the top I think the other thing is for individuals it helps
25:54
managers often managers are just expected how to do this without the training and you know we're passionate about training
26:01
colleges to to help them do their jobs effectively and if the policy says go and talk to your line manager first and
26:08
they need to be trained and how to handle it effectively for the benefit of
26:13
the individual but also the benefit of the organization and if managers feel that they've been supported by receiving
26:21
appropriate training and then that's another benefit to them and the whole organization and then wider if you've
26:30
got this this culture in place where staff feel able and comfortable speaking up and concerns are dealt with in an
26:37
effective and appropriate way then you are demonstrating internally but also to
26:42
external stakeholders well that you are an accountable and a listening organisation a t-nut back do you want to
26:51
pick up on some of the others at the bottom there yeah and I would just add about I you know it's so vital for an
26:57
organization to make it clear that they do monitor ethical behavior and so whistleblowing speak up facilities offer
27:05
that in opportunity for people to highlight areas of concern and really
27:11
reinforce the ethical climate that organization should be aspiring to and
27:17
you know that there are corporate level interests here in terms of things like maybe am some information that will feed
27:24
into the risk register will actually commune but we also have example it's an
27:32
example that I are referred to in the webinar was and the US military were
27:37
using IEDs in Iraq and they were using Humvees and there was a opportunity to
27:45
replace those with what are known as EM wraps which are mine-resistant vehicles and unfortunately the process to get
27:54
anything like that changed involved approvals at multiple levels so multiple departments including the Pentagon so a
28:01
delay in actually approving this unfortunate led to unnecessary deaths
28:08
and someone actually whistle blew about that and and it just highlighted the
28:13
circular impact of you know sometimes our process is even and not fit for purpose the layers of hierarchy and
28:21
approval and you know that's something that gets referred to in the public sector for example you know layers of
28:26
red tape and so you know this gives you the opportunity to call out the fit for purpose of processes or the chain of
28:33
command and in you epoch support that we referred to earlier we talked about
28:40
passivity so people can be passive from happiness you know they're quite content
28:46
in their job that they're quite content with you know the organization or from the fear but unfortunately both of those
28:53
can actually contribute to an ethical behavior and ultimately in terms of
28:59
providing any form of facility regardless of how many channels you provide there's a real need to reinforce
29:06
positive norms with staff and really give that sense of psychological safety
29:12
we want to hear from you and we want to put things right yeah
29:19
absolutely looking at the flipside to getting it right and wanting to get it right you
29:26
know getting it wrong the impacts can be huge and you just alluded to one that you know where you know the extreme end
29:32
of wrongdoing either going undetected or ignored that's that lives can be lost and you
29:39
know if you think people working in in health or the care sector you know that
29:44
there have been some examples in the news over over the years on that for example mid staffs where like the people
29:51
have been too scared to speak up or spoken to the wrong people or it's been ignored and the no real impacts to
29:57
patient safety for example since I've been a protect there been a number of
30:04
stories in the media in all sorts of sectors which which you know would fall into either one or multiple of these
30:11
sort of bullet points so you know I work I work for a charity and I work in the charity sector and have them for quite a
30:18
long time so the Oxfam scandal a couple of years ago we would drop into
30:24
a few of these you know the organization itself was in crisis mode lives were
30:31
impacted by the wrongdoing abroad a loss
30:37
of confidence in the charity itself but also that that hit the wider sector and
30:43
there has been a regulator response by by the Charity Commission for example other organizations such as kids company
30:51
again you know Oh a well-established
30:57
charity that was publicly well known so that you know that was in the news a
31:02
couple years ago you know the sector's as well so for example the PPI
31:07
mis-selling in the financial services sector and you know do banks have to put
31:13
millions of pounds aside for full compensation and then has also led to the FCA introducing stronger rules
31:21
around whistleblowing so you know getting it wrong as huge impacts at all
31:29
levels for individuals for the organization and put them for wider society so it's important to do
31:35
everything you can as an organization to to get it right because of that you know at the heart of this really is is the
31:44
whistleblower and what what what you know put yourself in their shoes
31:50
essentially a whistleblower or a staff member with a concern will will have
31:56
three options so the first option is is to keep their head down and keep quiet
32:02
and and there are very human reasons why somebody might do that for example and nobody else in the team seems bothered
32:09
it's only a suspicion they haven't got any evidence
32:15
the policy messaging might not be very clear on what to do so they might be confused a classic example is is a fear
32:23
a fear of being ignored and not taken seriously a fear of reprisal by the
32:30
company or by co-workers and the fear of impact on on their job or indeed working
32:37
in that sector again so there were very human reasons why somebody might keep
32:42
quiet but of course this is the most dangerous response because the the
32:47
wrongdoing will will go undetected and the theme back can be much bigger yes
32:53
sir really yeah sorry John I was going to talk about some research by Edmondson I found in
33:00
2018 where she highlights five beliefs about speak up at work as she calls them
33:08
implicit theories of voice but those five theories as to whether or not you
33:13
do speak up on whistleblower work include that you don't criticize work that might have been created by your
33:20
boss number one then you're going to speak up without solid evidence number
33:25
two that you don't speak up if the boss is around number three that you don't
33:31
speak up negatively in a group formats and lastly that speaking up brings
33:38
negative career consequences sorry John do continue mmm I mean it's
33:44
interesting I think you know we do a lot of research and you know that strikes a
33:50
chord I think you know it's important therefore for organizations to to realize and get their messaging right
33:57
that you know it's not to counter those some of those points to you know that it's not up to the the whistleblower to
34:04
happen to go and get evidence that can put them in a dangerous position you know you want to welcome somebody coming
34:11
to you saying I suspect this is happening and that's enough we look into it and we'll do what we can to find out
34:17
if that is actually going on and we look at you through the process so you know that's almost a flip side so if I talk
34:23
about the other two options which is you know that can raise it internally work with you as the employer
34:29
or they can go outside and going outside you know people automatically think about the media but actually a lot of
34:36
assignments to the regulator very few people who call our advice line talked about wanting to go to the media for
34:42
example look at that internal option you know it's really important that as an
34:48
organization you know in your policy messaging and your your guidance that you might have on your internet and
34:54
training and awareness sessions etc that it's clear how to raise the concern and
35:00
who to go to and also that they will be looked after you know that assurance and
35:07
reassurance can help counter some of those those concerns they may have about
35:13
their own safety or their own career etc you know people will raise internally if
35:20
they hear positive experiences of colleagues who've also who've also done
35:25
it so you know who might erase the concern on it it's gone well the flipside of course is bad news travels
35:31
fast so if it's handled badly and n-word goes around and that's why it's important that managers are trained so
35:38
you know raising it internally is all about creating that culture it's it's
35:43
stuff being aware of the channels and the processes in place and also
35:48
crucially not just being aware but trusting them and going outside could be
35:54
seen as well you know they either don't trust or aren't aware of the internal options or they might have a lot of
36:02
faith in the regulator for example or they might have exhausted all the internal options if it's not being either handled very well or they're not
36:09
hearing anything at all and in other words no feedback they might think and go outside so some organizations we talk
36:18
to feel that going outside is perhaps the the worst option for the
36:23
organization where's that actually I would say staff keeping silent it's the
36:28
most dangerous option all-round for the organization but also for the potential
36:34
escalation and impact you know I would just add that there was
36:39
some research by Trevino Victor which we referred to it's 2004 and that showed
36:45
that those who take principled stands all are willing to call out any concerns
36:51
whilst they are perceived as highly ethical are also perceived as unlikable
36:57
an issue that's prevalent in the workplace yeah I think it's really
37:05
important then and this comes up people who either received or worried about
37:11
being perceived as unlikable it's important for the organization in a whistleblowing situation to focus on the
37:17
message not the messenger so you know I might be the sort of person who raises a lot of concerns a lot of a lot may or
37:25
may not be founded but but this one may be so it's important to take them all
37:30
seriously and investigate fully because this could be the one that that has some
37:35
serious impact absolutely I think that's a really important point about message
37:40
and not the messenger and you know when an individual is considering whether or
37:47
not to raise a dilemma we found that they will assess the rightness or the
37:52
wrongness of the choices you know they'll make an assessment of the consequences of each action but they do
38:00
this by calling on their personal norms that they've collected over their
38:05
lifetime and this is where all motivations can really work with employees on building that psychological
38:13
safety that we spoke about earlier so so
38:19
lived on to the ethical aspects runners yeah and so we talked about we had
38:26
looked at the ethical aspects and the dilemmas with regards to whistleblowing and speaker and in the survey prior to
38:34
the webinar we'd asked people about the types of dilemmas that they've experienced and I know that some of
38:41
these will resonate me that the types of concerns that you've seen John but one of them that was raised quite a lot
38:48
was about the issue of those that talk in proxy so you know they're talking on
38:53
behalf of someone without naming them or add to that the concerns that are raised
38:59
anonymously that really brings a dilemma and a key aspect to the fall because it
39:07
may limit the action that can be taken by the organization for example if
39:12
bullying is referred to you know there may be need to focus more on individuals
39:18
and of course you know why are people doing that anonymously
39:24
is it because as a fear of retaliation and there's some research that is
39:30
referred to in our resources at the end of this webinar by dr. Chris Gill and Carolyn Hurst about the impact of being
39:38
complained about so the reference that's listed is some principles they developed
39:44
because in their research they found that for example 71 percent of people who are in a role where there can be
39:52
complaints raised reported a negative impact on their practice and of course
39:57
there absolutely is an impact on their mental health and well-being so the
40:03
report gives some guidelines and principles on how to deal with those complaints but you know there is a need
40:09
to also look at those that are referred to in the processes and a duty of care
40:17
towards those employees as well and another issue that was raised was
40:22
regards to not having a speak up facility at all so lack of a speak up
40:28
facility which clearly had support but also the inappropriate use of the
40:34
facility so that might mean you know issues that are normal day to day matters that should be taken to HR for
40:41
example and then there was also an issue with regards to senior colleagues so
40:48
actually the ability of those that are working with the reporting function and how they can escalate those concerns
40:56
you know there's a real need to you know highlight that organizations have an
41:01
identity that's greater than individual individuals and influential people in an
41:07
organisation and that you know concerns and ideas as well should not be
41:12
surprised and even calling out conflicts of interest you want to have that sense
41:19
check on things that could be perceived as a conflict so we recognize that you
41:26
know our members are grappling with dilemmas regularly and so the copd have
41:32
provided a facility for members on our online community so that's like they
41:37
accessed via the COPD website and that gives a confidential space where members
41:42
can post anonymously if they want to thrush out and you know to share a
41:48
dynamic concern that they're dealing with in the workplace and it's been a
41:53
massive success we've had over 50,000 views of the area over 300 posts have
41:59
been made by members and what's really even more inspiring is that the member
42:04
communities is not just the CIPD but the member community respond to those who start threads and give not just
42:12
technical support but emotional support that's another aspect in you know the
42:18
speak up provision is you know giving that emotional support as well yeah
42:25
that's a really good point I think the channels and the procedures and the policies in place is crucial and you
42:33
know providing the the reassurance to workers to speak up because you know sometimes people might have been
42:39
bottling this up for quite some time before they have the courage to speak up
42:44
and it can be a very emotional thing to do so I think that's a really good point about you know thinking about a staff
42:50
well-being as well Tina sure so we asked in the survey is your organization doing
42:57
everything it can to encourage a speak up culture and you know this this graph
43:02
speaks for itself really sixty percent of the respondents well over sixty percent said they could do better and so
43:10
hopefully you know some of the things that we've taught through today will help organizations think about that and
43:16
in the guide we talked about the need to communicate regularly about the facility
43:22
not just have it you know it's something that's a policy that sits hidden away and is also only talked about at
43:30
people's inductions there is a need to communicate regularly not just about the facility but actually what action has
43:37
been taken and we also asked what happens when a concern is raised so
43:45
you'll see here and John we spoke about this graph you know outside of the
43:51
webinar because we were both surprised by the one that is ranked highest here
43:56
which is that the individual receives feedback my experience that's not been
44:03
the case but you'll also say that we've got things like report to the senior
44:09
leadership team so that the those that are designated responsibility for speak
44:14
up function will actually make those reports to the senior leadership team
44:19
and actually lower than that are reports to the board and higher than I expected
44:27
was that the workforce are given a general update don't know if that's
44:32
because our participants of the webinar are people who are working on this and so you know maybe organizations that
44:39
have already looked at these and smaller and percentage had talked about all of
44:45
these and really the ideal would be that all of these are provided but do you want to speak about any anything to do
44:52
this job you're you're surprised about
44:57
the eventual receives feedback being so high in our experience from research of
45:04
people calling on Iceland lot of people report to us that they
45:09
they haven't received any feedback at all I was certainly surprised and I think on the flip side the smallest one
45:18
but this you know all of these is happening isn't a surprise that is the
45:23
smallest especially when you think back to the previous slide of you know a lot of people saying we could do better we
45:29
could do more and I think which is which is an absolutely expected and honest
45:35
response on people to say well nobody's perfect we might have a lot in place but we can always do more and keep keep
45:43
pushing on to to maintain where we are and get better yeah
45:50
so just moving on and you know we talked about getting it wrong and trying to put
45:56
yourself in in an individual's shoes so you know getting it right and how do you
46:02
do that and it's not easy when we don't pretend it's easy what we say is if if
46:08
you're not doing these types of things then stuff I'm going to speak up so
46:14
we've already touched on a lot of these actually which is you know it's important that the leadership shows
46:20
leadership on this and sends out very possible positive messages that you know
46:25
speaking up and we're supplying raising concerns or all the different terminology is is the right thing to do
46:32
it is welcomed and people do you know senior leadership do want to hear about
46:37
these concerns but also crucially that that you will be looked after and I
46:42
think you just touched on that the second one that's you know which is communicate regularly a lot of the time certainly in the whistleblowing field an
46:50
organization will will make me think well we're going to relaunch the whistleblowing policy and arrangements
46:55
will have columns campaigning around that and then and then that's it and
47:01
then make this making in in volumes coming in and it might then tail off because another campaign about something
47:09
else comes up and the day job takes over so it's important to really keep keep
47:14
communicating the arrangements are there the channels and the importance of this
47:21
also you know the other reason to keep doing it regularly is to consider staff turnover and again you mentioned
47:28
induction training two really important that people are trained in in in this
47:36
and are aware of the channels when they join because that again from the
47:43
research we've done we know that most whistle birds for example are relatively
47:48
new in the organization some of the others there talked about engaging staff
47:53
so a lot of organizations do wider engagement surveys which is which is a
47:59
great thing to do but sometimes I think organizations could could include more
48:05
questions around speaking up and whistleblowing or do a standalone survey
48:10
around that the others you know obviously if you handle concerns
48:16
effectively and people have a positive experience which which is what you're
48:21
aiming for and will speak up again if they have another concern that that really links to the next point which is
48:28
training the managers to receive a concern well and in appropriate way and
48:34
and also not just be able to recognize is this grievances as whistleblowing etc but but also then knowing what the
48:42
process is and what's expected of them has a manager and the last one really is
48:48
and this is difficult with low volumes but if you have enough volumes then
48:54
aggregating and showing that you're listening and acting on concerns by
49:00
changing processes etc over the last 12 months or six months or whatever the time period is appropriate but I would
49:07
just add John that in terms of competitive advantage you know I've seen
49:13
more and more and particularly with corporate governance requirements that you know whether there is a facility or
49:19
not fall star from what it done about concerns is something the organization's are asked about but also actually you
49:28
know for particularly our members who are concerned with employee engagement you will have a workforce that are
49:35
coming from organizations and there were some organizations that have fantastic facilities and fantastic arrangements so
49:42
if they're coming to your organization I can see that you know that's not in place that could really be damaging to employee
49:49
engagement yeah yeah thank you
49:55
we also asked about how facilities are promoted in the and I won't talk to each
50:03
of these responses takes on conscious of our time and then to canter through but
50:08
the thing is that as we've one of the earlier questions we would also say that
50:14
all of these should be looked at and not just one in isolation you know the
50:21
importance of tone from the top of messages from leaders is a given both on
50:26
ethical practice but also on and people's ability and feeling safe to speak up but all of these are so key in
50:35
really reinforcing that facility and the value of it anything to move on no no I
50:42
think I think you've hit the nail on the head there okay great so we've got your site a job yeah yeah so this just really
50:51
comes together how we encourage organizations to look at own whistleblowing arrangements but you know
50:59
you could apply that to a wider speak up arrangement as well so just quickly talks in a few areas so effective
51:06
governance is really you know do you have a policy hmm place do you have that leadership we've just been talking about is it
51:12
looked at regularly by for example the audit committee and reported on in
51:17
financial services do you have a whistleblowing champion in place that's actually a role that many other sectors
51:23
are or individual organizations are putting in place even though the regulated might not require it and
51:30
generally organizations might do better here because as we know from the earlier
51:37
research that most organizations have a policy of some description the engagement is okay habit you know you've
51:43
got all that in place but how are you engaging with with staff and that's all
51:49
about staff surveys and the communications and and trying to build that trust and
51:55
confidence and an awareness in the arrangements but also how are you engaging with managers which I've talked
52:01
about them on some of the earlier slides in terms of helping them feel supported
52:06
knowing what's expected of them so because let's not forget managers are also staff themselves so that's the
52:14
engagement and the regular communications that you talked about Tina and then the operations area is
52:20
really you know what happens when it when it happens so when when a concern is raised how is it
52:27
triage has it received how is it investigated what feedback is given and
52:34
how is it resolved so you know you just opted off the webinar by talking about
52:39
your call to action and really this is our call to action or those listening but all organizations to to go back and
52:47
look at your whistleblowing arrangements in this way to to see how effective they
52:52
are indeed and we asked and you know but the provision of helpline and whether
53:00
that's resourced internally externally and there was some that said not
53:05
applicable which is interesting and obviously there were more than double those that provide it internally go
53:13
externally so anything to say on that well I mean I think then not applicable
53:20
is was you know a surprise to be that
53:25
high I think it's important that people do have some sort of helpline for for
53:30
staff who may or may not understand the process or not feel comfortable with the process I said that that was certainly a
53:37
surprise I think you know it's interesting to see there is a combination and as I said you know we we
53:45
work with organizations to to complement those internal arrangements and therefore we would probably fall into
53:50
that category the combination yeah so I'm not going to
53:56
talk to these two slides here because they are both and once to it fought for
54:02
listeners to refer to but you will see that the first one talks about and it's
54:07
really just a flow chart which again I've borrowed from the Frances of Murphy book and the flow chart in terms of
54:15
looking into reports that could be made so the BOK but referring specifically to
54:20
ethical breaches but I think you could actually use these as a flow chart in terms of looking at how you deal with
54:27
reports and concerns that are made through speak up facilities and then
54:33
most importantly here is to really think about the flow in the process and the stages involved in communicating
54:39
decisions because however effectively you promote your facility if people that
54:46
use the facility are not getting any outcomes then you know you're going to have a real problem with its perceived
54:53
value anything to write on those John no no thanks okay so to bring it you know
55:02
to wrap up what we talked about are really looking at the barriers to speaking up and the need in terms of an
55:09
ethical climate to create that openness we talked about how and you need to look
55:14
at having more than one channel as well and building up that trust and you know
55:20
in thinking of the barriers to speaking up bear in mind that you might have people who had a negative previous
55:27
experience so that size about the organization or where they've worked previously and we
55:34
talked about inductions as a form of you know letting people know about your facilities I actually I was aware of an
55:42
organization where they had to peered over a group of people from another
55:47
organization and speaker for something that was introduced in inductions
55:53
however with this group because they were tupid over they didn't have the traditional induction and some issues
56:01
came to light which actually you would have expected to have been reported through the speak up channels and when
56:08
one of our members looked into why it was because they had never been made aware of those facilities and you know
56:16
really looking at other in the sources of information so not just the actual
56:21
speaker from whistleblowing facilities but cross-referencing that with things like attrition rates the information
56:29
that group in exit interviews looking at monthly in diversity rates of course
56:35
health and safety stats as well and even the satisfaction scores all of these
56:41
should be cross-reference to the types of reports that are being made in terms
56:48
of building trust in the organization and a real need to show that you want to
56:54
unpick any politics there at play here because these can lead to an ethical
57:00
behavior as well and as much as we want to be a principled organization and we
57:06
might on that scale that I referred to earlier see ourselves as being at a four or five actually is that the reality of
57:13
customers is that the reality of the workforce and showing that you may not
57:20
always be able to take immediate action so there is something here about managing the expectations of those who
57:26
raise concerns they may not see tangible outcomes immediately and that's
57:32
something that I know has been raised in in multiple ways with regards to the
57:39
controversy around bullying and harassment so for example if HR are
57:46
looking into bullying and harassment concerns in an organization whilst those inquiries are ongoing
57:51
they are confidential and so you know it may not be possible to share that information or even when disciplinary
57:59
action has been taken it doesn't mean that the organization hasn't actually
58:04
taken any action so there's a need to establish how you can communicate those
58:11
concerns have been taken seriously without actually breaching the confidentially confidentiality aspect
58:18
and that is something that an inquiry government for which copd responded to
58:25
they called out people hiding behind confidentiality and a need for more
58:31
transparency in the guide one of the
58:36
things that's included is this checklist that can be used when looking at you speak up facilities so the guides in
58:43
this checklist is in the guide along with some narrative behind that but
58:49
essentially you know the workforce need to know how to raise those concerns they need the regular reminders but we also
58:55
talk to things like looking at decision making in the organization so it's not just about having decision-making
59:02
frameworks but actually having some transparent processes in place and being
59:09
clear on what isn't isn't acceptable so you know when you're getting their reports raised they are concerns whether
59:16
or not they actually relate to things that can be changed or this need to do some training with the workforce on
59:23
things that are acceptable or not and we also recommend that speaker facilities
59:28
are extended to contractors and agency workers so not just you know the
59:35
traditional full-time employees we also would absolutely recommend that
59:44
you know there's targeted moral reminders you know they are looking at not just you know the reports that have
59:52
been made but the implications of those how you can head them off and involving members of the workforce in reviewing
59:58
those reports of concerns and then actually that cross reference to any policies in place in the organization
1:00:05
that hold people accountable and we asked in the survey as well how
1:00:13
effectiveness of facilities is evaluated and what came out was that an annual
1:00:19
staff survey is one way that the facilities are evaluated but an
1:00:24
excellent suggestion which we would really ask them behind or external
1:00:29
ethical audits and some organizations referred to having on their board a
1:00:36
national Guardian role as well so those are things to think about but just
1:00:41
bringing this to a close I've mentioned our resources so these are some resources from the CIPD including the
1:00:48
guide and the report the area for members to thrush I think all dilemmas and the CIPD profession map I also
1:00:56
mentioned these global business ethics text Birkin and those books are
1:01:01
available through our publisher but there's also here some case studies that you can obtain from protect and some
1:01:08
other resources in particular the speak up facility which is an app and at all
1:01:14
from the Institute of business ethics and the report that I referred to about
1:01:19
being complained about we this webinar was part of a series of webinars for the
1:01:26
CIPD so this was the first one that took place on the 11th of March the second
1:01:32
one and talked about furnace which is a really topical subject and definite
1:01:37
related to ethical practice and you'll be able to watch that webinar on the same link as this one so the final
1:01:45
webinar in the series is webinar 3 on the 30th of April and that's looking at the action to prevent
1:01:52
unethical behavior in the workplace and John we had some questions in the
1:01:57
webinar that took place just because conscious of time I mentioned to those
1:02:04
questions very quickly if that's okay with you yeah that had come in was about
1:02:10
how many concerns should we receive based on our size what's - yeah good
1:02:18
good question it's a kind of a piece of string question you know we say there's
1:02:24
no right answers to that because you can have two organizations with the same head count in the same sector with
1:02:30
vastly different volumes of concerns and you know the volume of concerns is influenced by all sorts of things you
1:02:37
know the culture within the organization and the awareness the trust
1:02:42
well it's promoted it for us it's not about the volume of course if you've got
1:02:49
low volumes that could mean there's not a lot of wrongdoing fantastic or it could mean there's a culture of silence
1:02:55
some people are too too worried to speak up and a high volume can can be the opposite so it's about digging behind
1:03:03
the volumes what are they telling you is it certain types of concern what about the anonymity rates was you know how
1:03:10
many are substantiated all sorts of things you can be looking at behind the volumes but also you know I'd refer
1:03:18
people back to that diagram I almost finished on in terms of that's how we
1:03:23
would recommend people look at their arrangement and how how effective they are rather than judging it purely on on
1:03:31
the volumes sure and I think that's a really good point about you know the the
1:03:37
success of a speaker facility and arrangement isn't necessarily based on the volume and depending on other
1:03:45
aspects in the organization and the second question was about how can I throw the need to resolve speak up
1:03:51
channels so our leadership team as this is not seen as a priority yeah
1:03:59
good question difficult one for people within our organization to sell it
1:04:06
sometimes nothing gets it's coming together a lot of elements from this webinar and demonstrating to the senior
1:04:13
leadership that it's actually an investment rather than a cost and it's an investment in staff but also the
1:04:19
organization itself showing the benefits to the organization in terms of reduced
1:04:26
risk they're our bottom line and effects in terms of you know stopping wrong
1:04:32
doing it early particularly if it's for example financial fraud benefits to
1:04:37
staff you know you touched on that on staff well-being it can lead it can lead if you've got the right culture to
1:04:43
reduce staff turnover high productivity etc and so it's putting all of those
1:04:48
things together and and because really it fits into how you want to act and be seen to act as an
1:04:56
organization to to all your stakeholders yeah and I would just add to that that
1:05:02
you know there's an importance to say and clarify that you need to know the truth and that you know with managers
1:05:09
and leaders he might feel painful and to hear some of the concerns that are raised but you might learn something
1:05:15
that you didn't perceive as well yeah absolutely managers need to understand the impact
1:05:22
they are having you know people management is not just about the technical aspects of the role and I'm
1:05:29
really adds and in wrapping up that organizations need to honor you know there's it's one thing having a
1:05:35
statement and a set of values but actually to honor that commitment you know they need to know the truth and
1:05:42
they need to praise the bravery and the courage of people who speak up rather than criticize
1:05:50
okay so these are the things that were looking at in today's webinar speak up
1:05:56
arrangements other organizations the benefits getting it wrong right we've talked about ethical aspects and
1:06:02
dilemmas and how to success for the implement those using checklist and we talked through some of the questions I
1:06:09
hope that all who are listening whether it's through the audio or watching it on-screen have enjoyed this webinar
1:06:14
today I particularly like to thank John for your time and also helping out with
1:06:20
the rerecord of this webinar and real overhaul and you've made a fantastic
1:06:26
contribution so thank you so much you're
1:06:31
very welcome so just to wrap up we have a couple of opportunities that people if you've
1:06:37
provoked to hear that webinar can get involved so one of the needs to contribute to a bank of dilemmas and
1:06:45
that I'm working on which is going to lead to some case studies and some
1:06:50
materials for members on the profession so we're really interested to hear about the types of ethical dilemma not just
1:06:57
around speak up on whistleblowing and but on ethics and to help with that bank
1:07:02
of case studies we also have a couple of opportunities for people to volunteer
1:07:08
and support our work on ethics and then there is going to be a follow-up survey and that's looking at other areas that
1:07:15
you would like to see either covered in webinars from the CRPD or from any subsequent research and
1:07:21
reports so that email address is there but please also use it for any aspect that has come up in today's webinar or
1:07:29
any aspect on ethics at all we'd love to hear from you so thank you for your time that brings this webinar to a close and
1:07:35
I'd encourage you to participate in webinar number three
English (auto-generated)

0:00
and welcome the component depends entirely on today's session my name is Joe Haden and I'm going to be your host
0:06
of the session silence on the background making sure everything runs to plan we've got a few polls coming our way
0:11
when you get to cast your votes with administer those I'll keep it on the chats great to see what we've already
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talking about albeit disco warmer the chat function in terms of way of dieting a problem and of course what the
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weather's like throughout the world so keep an eye on that you can post questions there observations is going
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through this always will be really helpful and I can say I'll keep an eye on that as we go through we've got a Q&A
0:34
session question answer session right at the very end so we could hold any great questions to later on of course we need
0:41
to do them anything as we go into it we'll pick those up the whole way through just to mention this session is
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going to be recorded so you can get a copy of that so if you want to kind of think about good receptions interests
0:53
you can go back and take a look at that but of course you could share that with why the coins network as well so we'll
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be on the COPD website it takes a while for us to get the recording actually put it on the website get it webinar platform but it should be
1:07
there shortly so a couple of things to remember keep an eye on that chat box as you go through and this session is going
1:14
to be recorded so that's all good so this session is webinar number two three
1:19
as already mentioned it to focus on awareness the first session is also to be on the website we're going to record
1:25
that I place that there as well and number three the final session is going to be on the 30th of April and you can
1:33
attend these webinars stand alone one of them two of them or all three of them doesn't really know much difference but
1:39
just to let you know we're right in the middle with the webinar ethics and which ones gone of one to come as I said the
1:46
30th of April so this was Atlanta Lydia finished make sure everybody's in the
1:51
arrival that's best they can the main thing is to get the chat going what you can see is going great guns already
1:57
click on that icon that looks like a chat bubble speech bubbling cartoons to
2:02
make sure your the chat should pop up to the right level side and you can see the comments coming through as we go through
2:09
if you want to make a comment you can connect panelist directly just be mindful when they presented they don't really tell
2:15
people to focus on that and the slides but I can keep an eye on that questions observations or anything want more
2:21
clarity on and if you come from person to all participants you can do so as well and what kind of content you want
2:28
to post so hopefully you're pretty warmed up with the webinar environment should you ever see the slides they
2:34
could have started moving through that course you should have the audio by now if any reason you can't you will go back
2:40
at the communicate tab right top you can see that I think there's a lot of
2:45
activities open you should be good to go so now I am staring on the top left outside of commercial living consultant
2:51
CIPD and he's the taking the reins and since presenting the first she's worked the safety she's the same team as myself
2:58
she's worked there for nine years and she recently co-authored our ethics at
3:03
work alright so she's what about co-authors we have Tita Russell from the first time was Webner are we grateful to
3:10
hear from Allie this time she's got a to hopefully two guest speakers but to work hard to get back out into the webinar
3:17
environment Marco are there is the chief executive officers now that's where the
3:22
world's largest leading energy infrastructure companies and Margaret
3:27
the book generation h of hydrogens potential as a clean energy resource and
3:32
came to our tent rivera pen tool which i'll post later in the slides and in the chat which v taking the gap and
3:39
excellent to looks if you want to look at that you can do so let's mark I hope you'll be able to get to the webinar I'm
3:45
Eliza I still so i disturb you it's just mark I think I've got Marco on I'm going
3:51
to do a very quick sound check hi Marco can hear us yes they can hear you loud relator great thank you so I
3:57
should go back on you now no that's perfect ominous always helping tonight by presenting someone would actually be
4:03
this so Martha great having on board after getting through the tech problems you get a year Ben's been with us since
4:09
atomic clocks however I'm sure you store with us and Aileen Johnson is director of strategic initiatives at the DubLi
4:16
central character and virtues and leads on directed strategic initiatives managing partnerships and the
4:22
integration research projects undertaken by the center amazing this is good work around virtues
4:28
which is a big interest area of mine a little bit later on so everybody in
4:33
terms of all something fibrous introduced the web paradigm axe that introduced to our presenters so I'm
4:38
going to hand them early now is going to start the presentation feel that hand lifted Marco and Aiden I said do post
4:45
any questions or observations you'll go through it but we'll take the predominantly at the end of the session we'll open up a Q&A we'll have to manage
4:52
time slightly appreciate we start a little bit late but let's see where we are once we've heard from Alan and marker in
4:57
Alec over to you you Thank You Stuart you could just pass
5:04
over the slice to meep brilliant I think
5:10
I've got them so hopefully upon seeing this next slide
5:15
I would shipment the CIPD profession map so thank you very much Stewart and and
5:21
welcome everyone hello I hope you're well I'm going to start with a little bit about the context or ethics and
5:28
ethical practice have been on the CIC PD agenda for some years now and especially in the wake of rising corporate scandals
5:35
so when we start to plan for the redesign of our profession up about two years ago
5:41
ethics was made provision for and what you can see on the screen now is our new
5:47
profession map and that was launched last year
5:53
so if you're not familiar with this new map here's a brief overview of society
6:00
standards and we've separated them into the core knowledge specialist knowledge
6:05
and also our poor behaviors and we've included ethical practice within our
6:12
core behavior section as you can actually see here so if you do at some other time good familiarize yourself
6:19
with the massacre if you're not already and familiar so please um you know we're the CIPD and
6:28
actually describe medical practice to be building trust by role modeling ethical
6:34
behavior and applying principles and values consistently in decision-making
6:44
so alongside this move to include ethical practice in our profession our
6:50
map and our research team produced this evidence-based report in April two
6:55
thousand nineteen and this report is called rotten apples bad barrels and 50
7:01
situation it's a comprehensive review of the extensive research out there and on
7:07
unethical workplace behavior this report and we provide evidence based lessons
7:12
that people professionals and our leaders and use to minimize the likelihood of unethical behavior in
7:18
their workplace it explores what drives unethical better webhead behavior and
7:24
also provides recommendations to build more ethical workplaces and there is an
7:31
Stuart's actually going to be popping and URLs in our chat box which is done for me thanks to do it and so that you
7:38
can actually go through those and there's some direct links for use so on the back of that and actually it
7:49
was really closely followed up by this guide launched last November and what
7:54
can I actually call that alongside my colleague Tina Russell who brand the first webinar for us our on speak harp
8:02
and we have a sheet the recommendations of the nine action areas if the boys can
8:07
prioritize between here and actually set about writing practical guidance on what
8:12
to look out for so things like the warning signs that could lead to 1s behaviors such as you know arise in
8:19
grievances all that is anomalous comments we see from our engagement surveys I'm sure we've all seen them
8:25
those of you in HR and also in in management positions and we refer to
8:31
those as red flags and we've been provided practical advice and solutions
8:37
that you can take to make changes and a course look into sort of mitigating against those risks but today at the
8:48
area we're at what we're going to explore and I'm going to talk about more as in my guest speakers is more closely
8:54
today is fairness and organizational politics so we define fairness as organizations
9:04
they treat their workforce with fairness integrity and sensitivity are they more
9:12
likely to find that the workforce responds with increased commitment and also productivity however we have
9:19
uncovered that individuals are more likely to act unethically if they
9:25
perceive their organization to be unfair so for example you know if your reward
9:30
or resources aren't share fairly or policies and procedures are a little bit
9:37
inconsistent and we also find that a workforce will look to their leaders for behavioral norms so the first thing I
9:45
would like to ask you is and it was a opinion poll and I'm sure will learn
9:51
hope you bring this up in a minute to what extent is fairness role modeled
9:57
by your leaders in your organization so
10:03
hopefully that's going to come up in just a second and oh just going to open that one there
10:11
so roughly so what we have is we have
10:16
and three responses for you'd like to answer that a B and C a is very highly
10:23
be to some extent and see improvement
10:29
needed so you should see the poll on your screen now if you could all vote
10:35
and we'll see how that turns out so to what extent is fairness role model by
10:42
your leaders in your organization is that a very highly be to some extent or
10:50
see improvement needed
10:57
okay the votes are coming signal fast over three-quarters of us have found a reporting function don't review car for
11:04
anything - the reason you can stick it in the chat if you want or really the main power here is just reflecting on
11:10
this question personally so I'm going to close it down yeah it's a little bit
11:16
earlier this year - takes about 20 seconds articulate the results so anything there just don't come through
11:22
now than them I'll share those with you the next one five or six seconds and
11:28
then we can see what so what's the response we've got a group today just coming through now
11:38
okay should be coming through okay oh that's interesting so we've got no answer there as well but
11:44
actually to some extent so that is about
11:51
just under half of you which is really encouraging to see and my answer to that
11:56
is you know if you're in an HR capacity perhaps you can use your influence and
12:02
also provide guidance maybe start to happen for your policies or practices or even maybe review the values to see if
12:09
there is any concern consistency thank you for that and and moving on the other
12:16
area we focused on in the guide under the first tab is organizational politics
12:22
and these are the policies your procedures and practices that are could
12:28
be deemed unfair so that's why we recommend that an audit is carried out to ensure they're ethical in nature fair
12:35
and also equitable and you know we found that the effort required to navigate
12:42
organizational politics can actually create a strain some people they also
12:48
can reduce their self-determination we really don't want that and that's a
12:54
result of a lack of intrinsic motivation or diminishing motivations so if nothing
13:00
is done to rectify the situation our researchers found that this is causing a reduced sense of relatedness an increase
13:07
in alienation and that's been seen to result in unethical behavior so what I
13:13
mean by that is this could result in people protecting their own interests above ethical considerations for other
13:20
people and your organisation so another error with you this can also be seen in
13:28
productivity as well a research tells us that a percentage value in salary and on
13:34
employee retention and also engagement can range range from a hundred per
13:40
twenty percent and fully engaged employees to sixty percent in our
13:46
disengaged employees and I'm sure that you know if people are actually experiencing on
13:52
in their organization that probably plays quite a large part in people feeling you know a little bits that have
13:58
disengaged so I'm going to run another poll so hopefully shouldn't you're able
14:04
to actually live this one I'm going to run in the chat box so might be easier
14:10
to have a look at that so um I hope you can see that on the screen so comes with
14:18
your bonus points on your bonus payment and with your budget sort of allocation
14:25
for your yearly bonuses would you disperse it equally amongst your workforce or just your top performers
14:32
and we're quite keen to know so this is a chat box answer if you know what you
14:38
would do place either a one meaning give it to your top performers or a two
14:44
fairly to all employees in the chat box and let's see what comes up we've got lots of twos brilliant we've got a one
14:52
yeah okay it rather depends on how you did in talent within your organization I'm sure
14:58
and I know a lot of organizations are you know looking to deem talent as the
15:05
whole workforce and make sure that everyone is sort of valued the same and
15:10
I know that a lot of organizations are moving in that direction brilliant and that's one thing - excellent okay but
15:20
not today - performing poorly yes no no I get that if that's wrong from Carrie I
15:27
know Carrie thank you very much for your response there um so neither we don't
15:33
pay bonuses yeah there's as many organizations is your the same way thank you very much that's a really quick poll
15:39
so what we're going to do is actually going to hand over to my first guest
15:45
speaker who is Marcus and so if we don't mind passing a presenter rights to Marco
15:52
and then I'll take the back when he's done over to you Marcus thank you can you hear me yes we can
15:58
thank you I'm going to mute myself for a minute I can Stuart turn the pages because I'm
16:05
participating via audio and I don't see any presenter rights on this can someone
16:13
turn the page or I can I can do that me you okay very good well first of all Thank You
16:19
Alison very much for having me on this webinar thanks to all the people participating this is a very interesting
16:27
topic for me I've been studying and researching at different levels fairness
16:33
and ethics at work and I've tried hard to put this into practice I subscribed to everything that Allison said and to
16:41
the CIPD work and methodology there's a lot more research that I think needs to
16:47
be brought to this field in terms of organization and behavior I think where
16:52
we are the strongest is at the neuroscience and I'll touch a little bit
16:58
about that given the time and we started a little late Allison how many minutes would you like me to speak for at this
17:04
point okay just go through the slides as you can Marco and and we'll try to catch
17:11
up we've also got Aiden to speak as well thank you okay so try to stay within 12
17:18
minutes maybe is that it right perfect thank you okay very good so I'll go quickly through the first slides we all
17:24
know that the problems we face as CEOs and as managers and companies are really
17:30
very significant from a societal perspective both inequality and climate change have risen in the last 10 years
17:38
as what keeps people up at night and what motivates or D motivates people and
17:45
the shape of companies I'm now on page 20 the companies have also changed
17:52
radically we went very quickly from a world where organizations had a very strict
17:58
hierarchy like pyramids we had defined roles information was shared only on a
18:04
need-to-know basis and we basically had boxes and people knew what
18:09
the contour of their job was in a very formal way we've gone very quickly
18:15
because or thanks to social media to a situation where there's there's no one
18:23
you can shake his hand and then everything cascades down you have to have multiple levels of dialogue within
18:30
organizations collaboration is a lot more fluid boundaries or a lot more permeable boundaries
18:37
between companies between jobs within the same company there's a request from employees and customers and suppliers
18:44
for a total 24/7 transparency and so while the world is becoming a lot more
18:50
complex even before any health issues the companies are becoming much more D
18:58
structured and as companies become the structured amount page 21 we we see a
19:04
real risk I work in the energy space of a very strong breakdown of trust between
19:11
companies and societies and there's a real risk that companies if they don't
19:18
work with a purpose if they don't work ethically if they don't work with fairness inside and outside they can
19:24
very quickly lose their license to operate so on on page 22 what does how
19:32
can you build trust how can you rebuild trust with communities and with shareholders with employees we think
19:39
that fairness can really play a big big role we think there's a lot of science
19:45
to back this up and we can cover a little bit of that but some of the
19:51
points that Allison touched upon processes are the key to to having a
19:57
more fair work environment the selection process you use to hire people and also
20:04
to promote people is very important equality of character not only quality
20:10
of gender or other qualities really matters we see people who are more
20:16
outspoken take up an unfair share of meetings
20:22
making sure that quieter people who often are the ones that have the better ideas have an equal air time of meetings
20:28
is just one small example of how you can actually achieve fairness with with improved processes also in the key area
20:37
of capital allocation resource allocation processes have to be constantly audited to make sure that
20:43
they are fair there is a very strong correlation we found between transfer of
20:49
information and fairness the more information flows around the more fairness there is and then of course
20:55
whistleblowing also plays a role but why do we talk about the heart why do we talk about HQ well in the 50s everyone
21:03
was focused on IQ and still today G Matz and many MBA entrance exams are still
21:11
largely based on IQs and many selection processes and companies think IQ is a kind of a need to have but if you focus
21:18
too much on IQ then you have skewed people entering the workforce and entering leadership and doing MBAs which
21:25
may excel at IQ this place has become much more competitive but they may lack
21:31
what we call HQ in the 90s with the book emotional intelligence there was a big
21:36
shift from IQ to EQ or also to include EQ we think EQ is interesting but EQ on
21:44
its own doesn't doesn't say much that the world and history books are full of
21:49
very nasty people who had a lot of EQ EQ means charisma means being able to
21:56
empathize with people but doesn't necessarily mean to be fair and to treat
22:01
people fairly so we use this this word HQ when we select people we want to hire
22:07
them when we select leaders within our companies and in our supply chain here
22:13
there's a video that we won't share on page 23 but I invite those of you who haven't seen this too to have a look one
22:20
of the most inspiring things for me in studying some of the neuroscience is to discover there that animals monkeys but
22:29
more importantly babies when they're five months old have an innate sense of
22:35
fairness we are all naturally attracted to a fair outcome when we when we experience on
22:43
ourselves or on peers or even on people we don't know a fair outcome we have a
22:50
positive attitude and when we experience an unfair outcome if we go to page 24
22:56
the the science is very very strong the the pain we experience when we
23:05
experience when the pain we feel when we experience an unfair situation is exactly the same part of the brain and
23:13
the same neuro system as physical pain and you can you can actually cure social
23:19
pain or fairness pain with painkillers which is then one of the reasons why there's especially in the u.s. such a
23:26
big opioid crisis so when we feel we are treated unfairly we go we enter a
23:33
defense mode defensive mode are the the primitive reptile part of our brain
23:39
switches off and so we can no longer be creative we don't have fun we don't
23:44
collaborate and this sense of unfairness is experienced by 70% of respondents in
23:50
a big US survey they feel they're not treated fairly at work and some calculators some people calculate that
23:56
this costs around 700 billion US dollars of loss economic growth just because of
24:04
disengagement in in the workforce and this was a little controversial two
24:11
years ago when I when I started talking about this I've been very happy to see
24:17
people a noun page 25 like Larry Fink of Blackrock really come out publicly they
24:24
are you know Blackrock is the biggest shareholder in most of the listed companies he really came out publicly
24:31
saying that companies need to essentially be fair and have a higher
24:36
sense of purpose otherwise they will lose a license to operate this was last year's letter this year's letter was
24:42
even more explicit and you see ESG where we talk about environment social and
24:49
governance is gaining more and more ground in the eyes of investors rating agencies are
24:54
beginning to promote and realize some ESG scorecards ESP ratings and so you'll
25:03
very soon have companies that are ranked not only for profits and and stock price
25:09
performance but also for ESG performance that I think is going to be a very positive for for us both for
25:16
environmental reasons and for ethical social and governance reasons what we did in snap we were a hundred percent
25:25
fossil fuel company we're very quickly accelerating the energy transition investing on biomethane waste to energy
25:31
investing and hydrogen investing on sustainable mobility what we did in
25:37
order to inspire everyone and do this is launch internal university called slam institute and foundation called slam
25:45
foundation that we used to do not for profit activities we've recently been
25:50
able to give twenty million euros for the coronavirus but more importantly
25:56
we've been able to use our network in our context to help governments source key ventilators and protective equipment
26:03
for doctors and we've been able to do that because we've put the entire organization at the service of the
26:10
foundation so it's not just about money it's about deploying the capabilities so
26:15
when we had to inspire everyone not only we had the hard instruments of a
26:20
foundation and an internal universe but we really wanted to come up with a
26:25
purpose and on page 27 we use this model that Aristotle
26:31
invented more than 2,000 years ago that basically he started it said about
26:39
people but we think it applies to companies as well where your unique talents
26:44
intersect the needs of the world that is your purpose purpose is the reason you
26:51
exist and so we defined we spent a few months working with most of our
26:57
colleagues trying to define what our unique skills were you see that on the left side and then we asked ourselves
27:02
what the world needs which is cleaner secure abundant cheap energy and complex delivery and we
27:09
then drop our purpose which you can see on page 28 is energy to inspire the
27:14
world so in our governance books the purpose is the highest up then we have
27:20
the vision the mission the values a strategy but what's really inspiring us everyday is our purpose that's the
27:27
reason we exist that's kind of who we are and why we come at work and we found
27:33
that it goes miles to just explain very simply why we want to make a difference and to rally people to be more engaged
27:39
and to put in their best effort to make a difference so I've covered a lot of
27:44
ground these are complex topics here you have some ways to keep in touch I'm
27:51
active on LinkedIn where you can feel free to write to me and and message me
27:57
and I'll reply but I think there's also room for Q&A later on this webinar
28:03
I hope the audio worked well and it was all clear Thanks okay thank you very
28:09
much yeah and please say on the end webinar and and what we'll do is we'll
28:17
fill some questions to you at the end and just one that they'd come through Marcus was what is the age son or in HQ
28:25
you are talking about in relation to IQ and EQ
28:32
i Q's intelligence quotient EQ is emotional and HQs heart quotient heart
28:38
lovely that's great thank you so much that's a one question I actually saw come true in the in the
28:43
chat box so and thank you very much for that Marco really was great I know that
28:49
you know everything that you do and everything that your core is it's very much around about fairness so thanks for
28:56
sharing those slides with us we'll come back to you and so if I could just have the slide come running back and just
29:04
before I actually introduce you to my next guest BTS be cultivating Thompson
29:10
and I just actually want to ask you this question let's get everyone up and sort of thinking about this as well so if
29:17
fairness about treating everyone the same okay and that would be answer a or just
29:25
fairness about treating everyone with the same respect so I can see that on my
29:32
screen so if you could start and responding to a way that'd be marvelous
29:37
and and we'll reveal the results as soon as we can just to let you know that my
29:44
mix to be here and Aiden Thompson his pin to actually be and addressing this is a question that we were discussing
29:50
when we were chatting a couple weeks ago and so he will pick up on this and the
29:55
answers and the responses that come from through and when he comes to his and
30:00
part of the presentation which is the very next few slides so I was doing Stewart we've got seven or eight seconds
30:08
left just coming through so that's right I've high response level good
30:15
interesting to find out whether sort of a or b right okay that's really
30:21
interesting so what we can see is treating everyone with the same respect
30:28
came out at a roundabout just under two thirds of you responded that way with a
30:36
very small percentage saying about everyone the same and thanks
30:42
last year how say what if you wouldn't mind handing over the presenter point to Aiden I get a hand over to Aiden and
30:48
he's going to be talking about his role and what his there is a definition of
30:53
fairness where that comes to with his work these are virtues Aiden and Loeb to
31:00
you thanks Ali and thanks very much to Marco and when I was speaking to Ali about doing this webinar I didn't know
31:07
what Marco is going to talk about and actually having seen the slides yesterday and hearing Michael's presentation today hopefully these are
31:12
going to dovetail quite nicely and the reason I wanted to start off by asking that question around fairness is what
31:19
plays into the the first poll that Ali asked about the sharing of bonuses and
31:24
actually what fairness looks like in the workplace and what it means for us not just from a top down level but actually
31:30
for us as members of the workforce as middle managers and senior managers and people that manage other people and how
31:39
do we make sure that we are acting fairly on a day to day basis and perhaps using that example of the sharing of
31:44
bonuses just to articulate what the purpose of that poll was is to say a
31:51
little bit more about what fairness might look like so there was one response or two responses in the chat to
31:57
say that sharing bonuses equally is maybe an unfair thing to do if you've got lower performing members of staff or
32:06
maybe you've got certain people that maybe are deserving over bonus and
32:11
that's kind of the purpose of it actually if you've got a million pounds to split between 100 people you're not going to you may not want to give
32:16
everybody the same amount money you may want to split that up in a different way but how do you determine how do you act
32:23
fairly and how do you determine what fairness is in terms of in that case the right amount to do forgive my name is
32:29
Aiden Thompson I'm the director of strategic initiatives at a research center at the University of Birmingham called the Jubilee Center for character
32:35
and virtues and we launched in 2012 so we've been going nearly eight years now and we've done a huge amount of research
32:42
and collected a massive amount of data working with schools working with universities and working with
32:47
professionals across a number of different professions and it's some of that professional data that we've
32:53
collected that I want to talk to you about today and we are the center for character and virtues and what we mean by that is that
33:01
character our character is who we are and what makes up our character are the
33:07
virtues and what we've done in our research is use the virtues and there
33:12
are almost infinite number of virtues and we've always tried to kind of limit
33:17
ourselves into how many we and how many we talk about at times but what we've
33:23
done in our work in the professions is give people at entry level and experience level and at studying those
33:31
our undergraduate level and the same surveys and the same list of virtues and
33:36
ask them which virtues are important to you and on this slide we have 24 virtues
33:41
and they are taken from a measure called the values in action survey which has
33:47
been done by millions people worldwide and I'm about to post a link to it in the chat box as I'm talking
33:55
and it's very easy to do if you are interested in looking at it and what it does is give you a good idea of the
34:00
virtues they are important to you other people might use the word value whether people might use the word character
34:05
strength or something like that we use virtues and we've asked over three and a
34:10
half thousand professionals and training professionals which virtues are important to you and we ask this in two ways we ask this which virtues are
34:18
important to you personally and which virtues are important to you professionally and in the workplace and
34:24
whilst we would always advocate and say that you are the same person at home as you are in the office we have
34:31
found some interesting differences between those virtues that people report being important to them personally and
34:37
those that are important to them professionally the professions that we've worked with are the medical
34:44
profession the nursing profession so it's very very important to us at right at this moment worldwide teachers
34:51
lawyers and a mixture of business and finance professionals and we're very grateful to the CIPD for helping us
34:58
access their membership in terms of this survey a couple of years ago what we
35:04
found looking across those five professions and what we've published in a report last year called repurposing
35:11
the professions is that there were eight personal virtues that came out very very clearly almost well above any of the
35:18
other sixteen and seven professional virtues which came out very very clearly well in the both the other seventy and
35:25
for those that are very quick to look at this these two boxes you can see that actually seven of the eight virtues are
35:31
the same on both sides of the table there is any humor which came out has a net fourth important personal virtue
35:38
which is didn't appear as a professional virtue but honesty single most important
35:44
virtue as personally and professionally but relevant to this webinar fairness came
35:50
out as a second most important virtue that people regarded as part of their personal lives and the third most
35:56
important in the workplace after judgment so there's something to be said there around kind of what fairness looks
36:02
like what fairness needs as managers and as senior managers and CEOs and directors but also what fairness means
36:08
as part of their general workforce so before I move on and talk more broadly a
36:13
little bit more about the wider research what we wanted to do is ask another poll of you which is so based on those
36:22
virtues those those eight in the in the personal virtues I can read them back out again is which of these virtues is
36:29
most important to you of all and their honesty fairness kindness humor teamwork
36:37
perseverance judgment and leadership
36:43
perfect end up just open the poll box it's the third one now so people pretty rapidly in there will be if there's a a
36:50
bit of a wider choice this fun so on my run sly injury
36:56
it's going to close it down there colleges of young right still do and actually go down for teens it's like a
37:03
pole within the polls and how we do the most refined functions and shows that there and shortly share with a swarm things
37:13
can be very interesting results should be with you am about five or six
37:19
seven
37:26
I've just read the question from Angela about HR which is particularly interesting coming from a university
37:32
background to have my own opinions on university HR I'll come to that question towards towards the end so okay um maybe
37:40
primed by the topic as this webinar and that maybe you're all a bit more
37:47
inclined or interested in the notion of fairness but fairness coming out second there too honestly and honestly maybe
37:54
being reiterated in terms of our own research as being the single most important virtue to people in the
37:59
workplace and personally but some interesting ones there that humor doesn't feature so highly only to people
38:05
picking out humor 14 people picking out kindness and maybe in the world we we
38:11
live in right here and now kindness is being emphasized very much online about
38:16
how we interact with one another and how we protect ourselves and how we make sure that we engage with kindness engage
38:22
with other people with kindness thank you very much for for indulgently
38:27
with with that survey and if that's a but in terms of fairness then and
38:33
fairness in the workplace so three and a half thousand professionals ranking
38:39
fairness is either second or third most important virtue to them depending whether they're talking about personally or professionally but what does fairness
38:46
mean and we would as I said regard it as an important personal and an integral
38:52
professional virtue so we will call that a moral virtue and it's important for us to differentiate between the different
38:59
types of virtue and the eight that I've highlighted for us in this poll coming
39:04
to different categories and how the Jubilee Center categorizes that ACOs
39:10
always already referenced Aristotle and I didn't know that he was going to do that when i when i prepared my slides we
39:16
are an hourish that we are at Aristotelian Research Center we do follow the teachings of Aristotle in our but we apply them to the 21st century
39:24
and what we try and do is where Aristotle regarded character as being constituted of the virtues we then try
39:31
to differentiate those into four different categories and we call those categories the intellectual virtues
39:37
those that allow us to reason and apply judgment and wisdom the moral virtues and those that are enable
39:45
us to act ethically in a given situation the civic virtues those that allow us to
39:51
engage with our wider society and ensure that character building is not just done
39:57
for personal and individual benefit but for society as well and the performance
40:03
virtues which we would say the instrumental instrumental virtues which enable the other three to be enacted
40:10
so fairness here is a moral virtue of having components of integrity and having components of justice and maybe
40:16
service as well around it but very much more really focused and fairness is
40:21
something that is probably noticed when it is absent rather than when it is present and then where I've put there at
40:29
the bottom associated with interpersonal care and self-control that links more broadly to the notion of purpose and we
40:36
as a Jubilee Center advocate that keeping one's character or focusing on one's character in individual virtue in
40:43
general output of good character development is a focus on purpose and allows us to do this with purpose
40:49
and organizations to act with purpose again linking back to what Mark has said
40:55
I would just reference one of the reports that we have published on this
41:00
where to the reports actually sorry firstly we found that groups of
41:07
professionals across professions again we value qualities of character such as fairness but also honesty kindness and
41:14
leadership have been found more likely to report greater senses of professional purpose towards good societal benefit
41:21
and we tested that by not just asking participants to select which virtues
41:26
were most important to them but also posing moral dilemmas of them and asking them how they might in a given situation
41:32
and how they might justify that action and then following that up with a report that was only launched last week we
41:39
found that 69% of professionals again across the five professions indicated that they would deviate from
41:45
instructional regulation when a potentially more ethical action was available to them by that we mean they
41:52
wouldn't just follow the for the room sake they might they would consider doing some or having a more
41:58
ethical approach to the given scenario or situation this decision to take the alternative action with associated with
42:05
great greater what we call vector based reason most opt into lining construction
42:13
so what does all this mean in short we would argue that in the
42:21
workplace it is important both for us as employees and his workers but also as managers and
42:29
senior managers and directors and CEOs etc to recognize not just fairness in
42:35
isolation but actually the character development of those in our care and those in our workforce and character
42:41
development can take place in a multitude of different ways but fairness is just one part of it
42:47
fairness is a very important part and something that is regarded very highly by professionals but is also just one of
42:55
a number of different elements of one's character which can and should be part of any staff development any CPD as well
43:03
as an undergraduate training and I'll stop there and do you want me
43:11
to alley drop me to answer the question that was posed language or now or shouting back to the air to yourselves
43:17
as the experts yeah two parts and I saw that question as well and I actually and
43:22
can I just say was it that came true was it from Elaine I actually saw that
43:30
report and took it to our HRD Angela sorry I took that report to our HR d at
43:36
CIP degree and we both went oh right okay so yeah I did see that one as well
43:43
I see what and I won't mind both you and author marker haven't having an opinion
43:48
on that Angela's comment at the end if that's okay but we're we're not far off
43:55
question time anyway yes sir thank you okay I just got a couple more sides to
44:01
go so thanks shirt and we are close to the end and I will we won't be opening up to
44:08
questions as well as Angela's which i think is a really really very very valid point so I am quite interested to know
44:18
I'm in today at times we were to run more webinars on the topic of ethics
44:24
what would she be interested in so because this is a free fall free and
44:30
answer could you please just pop and form ideas into our chat box and we will
44:35
capture those it may well be that we set up a future another series of webinars
44:42
and and that we will look to see what kind of responses we actually and came
44:49
up with this question came up with and see what we might be able to do a future so and please pop your ideas not within
44:58
the chat box and and then we'll move on
45:04
you you
45:19
okay I read out a couple of these as they come through and then mycological
45:26
safety interesting how can how can
45:31
business it take set to change the perception that ethics and fairness I agree you'll get that from the guide and the
45:38
report difficult actus ISM dilemmas HR professional space yeah but we face a
45:44
lot of them yes okay how can business except to change the perceptions and
45:51
ethical practices their communication for effort future ethics and how about
46:00
well usually action areas you mentioned its beginning yeah did you know what we just thought we'd time to read that was
46:07
carry and just see how we get on with those and and just really see what the
46:13
take up would like before we actually decided on potentially taking the next
46:20
steps put another series in place the training for managers fairness tips and
46:25
hints ethic whistleblowing actually and made just like know that we
46:30
whistleblowing I was reached in the very first which is also under the speak up
46:37
and that will eventually go on our website you will be able to just listen
46:43
to that actual leisure at some point in the future okay roll the board link to
46:50
SMC um fairness workforce cultural promotions perfect okay we've got a few
47:00
and I saw the reward as well thank you very much for that and we will complete that and get that on board now actually
47:09
just want to highlight this and just have this on the slide for the moment ignore see which are some resources
47:15
which is our work guide does not matter alt report and repurposing the
47:20
profession the role of professional character and that was really that came from a legion and of course that's just
47:26
a shot of Marcos there with his fabulous TED talk there is the URL is in there and
47:34
hopefully someone can actually pop that into our chat box make sure it will and you can go and have a look and see that
47:42
at later date so a question so do you have any questions at all or Aiden or
47:51
market specifically or myself actually and but whilst you start thinking about this I think I'm going to go back to
47:58
that question from Angela and if I can ask Aidan you're you're not muted at the
48:04
moment so would you like to give us a response to that yeah and I think that the broader
48:10
response would be that often a focus on ethics or more ethical behavior fairness
48:17
any other virtue often comes from some sort of crisis or some sort of negative
48:22
report or negative perception or scandal I think we would always say a jubilee
48:28
center line is that focusing on character and virtues is a good by itself and it should be part of good
48:34
education it should be part of good organizational practice anywhere however is often highlighted when it is absent
48:42
and if at the HR sector and then perhaps the best way to to go about kind of
48:49
correcting perceptions or changing perceptions is to be more explicit and
48:55
in the communications in the language in the way the sector organizational bodies
49:03
membership bodies and talk about the profession and where there is an also an
49:10
acknowledgement that if there has been a particular scandal or a report that is quite damning and a knowledge meant that
49:16
that's what the perception of the perception is that try not to hide it try not to disguise it and move away
49:22
from it but actually acknowledging it head-on and doing something explicit to
49:28
change that perception right thank you very much and Satan mark
49:35
okay we are able to unmute you would you like to make a comment here as well so
49:40
I'm going to find yet you're unmuted now thanks Allison can you repeat the question because a poor sight well yeah
49:46
have it on the trip yeah bear with me a second and so it was interesting there was an
49:52
article published in me that stated HR viewed as the biggest liars in the workplace and can be viewed as searching
49:59
the wagons around those employees who raise grievances or whistle blow on unethical senior leadership practices or
50:07
behaviors how can HR shake off this deception while serving their leadership
50:14
community yeah I know quite controversial I
50:21
actually saw that article myself actually um that was when I was 14 I took it to our HRD at CIPD
50:28
and we were quite shocked I I think the days as I said in my
50:34
presentation the days of lack of transparency are over people are now able to confront their bonuses and in
50:42
real time and especially the younger generations they they request and require constant and continuous feedback
50:49
and technology will play a growing role in in doing a lot of what HR was
50:56
traditionally doing and collating the feedbacks is going to be magnitude of apps that continue to gather feedback
51:05
for 360s in real time and in multiple ways and formats so I think the I think
51:11
the new HR director should should be we could we call them actually a chief
51:16
fairness officer sometimes they should be the stewards of fairness issue they
51:22
should actually be seen to promote that in any way they can there's no need anymore for that kind of
51:29
don't don't say everything to everyone because otherwise you you lose power and
51:35
you have to retain power as management and as HR by by being scarce with the
51:40
information I think those days are gone I think the HR department should really be working around the processes that we
51:47
talked about earlier and making sure they they promote fairness instead of instead of generating concerns of lack
51:56
of transparency and honesty thank you very much and yeah I actually agree with
52:02
you and I love the idea that you call your HR people and you need to keep
52:09
awareness officers and I think that's wonderful and I think actually if you notice and we are moving away from sort
52:18
of personnel or HR professionals as an aim and moving toward people professionals and people practice and
52:25
that really should Intel and encompass all of those and the virtues and
52:31
fairness kindness leadership good leadership and due diligence and should
52:38
be included in that I will just say that within the guide and that we wrote I on
52:44
what affections it may have been in the fairness apartments recommend I do remember writing about NDA's and
52:50
certainly been such as a negative publicity in NDA's being sort of a gagging point for people moving on
52:59
within the organization and actually you know that those should not be used that
53:05
they are they're just soldiers to protect things like IP and also you know
53:11
company secrets not to you know a
53:17
thicker wheels right to be able to you know take of Britain grievances and to
53:25
the organization for some reason for for that reason with an NDA so we feel we're
53:32
I think we're all singing from the same hymn sheet that yes absolutely HR should not be seen to do this and maybe have
53:39
some work to do to take this perception it is a true perception at the moment
53:46
see what other any other questions no nothing coming through from me so
53:54
perhaps an interesting time machine moves the last slide and just post the low level of next there's one question
54:01
can prove little as you've been speaking ah
54:07
Turner said from Lucy Watson as fairness is largely down to personality and let
54:14
behavior that has been ingrained over many years how do you go about improving this for those who lack empathy for
54:19
others in the business with old-school culture of leadership being fair and kind is sometimes perceived as being
54:24
weak and I think maybe akin to what Marco said there that there may be the
54:31
all Terkel way of doing business I'm working academia so I won't pretend to talk about doing business as such but
54:37
certainly in academia a very traditional old fashioned at times profession to be
54:45
in but also needs to be at the cutting edge of teaching and research particularly at the moment when none of
54:50
us can be on campus that actually but to say that you lack empathy or you doing
55:00
your business and being in charge is just the way that you've always done it is no longer an excuse it's no longer a
55:06
way to to act that this is the 21st century actually 20 is enter 21st
55:11
century and things have moved on as well there are things there are measures out there and there are bulletin boxes for
55:22
focusing on from virtues empathy included but how effective they are
55:29
comes down to that individual you are right they see that this is down to individuality rather than maybe
55:34
personality and it's got to be we would say that it's got to be soft and like
55:41
that individual you've got to want to engage and pacifically you've got want to be fair before actually being told
55:50
that you're not being fair to change your habits and to do things in a
55:56
different way you've got to want to do it actually thank you I thank you very
56:03
much yeah agree with that there's another racial question has just come through from Youssef which is how can we
56:09
fix an illness inconsistencies where the basic processes are what not implemented
56:15
even when they exist as approved documents um I didna marker how do you feel Eve
56:24
able to answer that question don't repeat it no I got I got the question I
56:29
was thinking it's a I mean it's already good that the process is there so I think it's yeah I see the bottle half
56:36
full if there's a processor that's not not being followed then it's a question for internal auditory whistleblowing I
56:44
think the toughest part is to actually get a fair process out there in the first place and I think going back to
56:51
the previous question fairness is often a lot tougher than than than being
56:57
cynical and then cutting corners and in fairness is quite quite always the the
57:02
leads to very tough choices very strong choices I think fairness needs to
57:08
strengthen not to weakness and there's multiple examples of that when we talk
57:13
about looking at the heart quotient we we call it is is really to try to work
57:21
on the people who who don't feel for others and the only reason people don't
57:26
feel for others is that they put themselves ahead of the others and that leads to maybe being cynical or cutting
57:32
corners and people put themselves ahead if they have some inner frustration to to to feed and weave without being a
57:41
psycho psycho og Department being an energy company but we have very many
57:47
cases of people who were skeptical and cynical and then they just bought into
57:52
it because once a group starts behaving in a certain way members naturally that that's not not
57:58
going to lead to miracles but if you have the right process and you're explicit about it I think you can really go a long way to bring people on
58:05
everyone's in it to win it's kind of a win-win outcome and the people who play a different game end up losing and can
58:13
adjust something if something has occurred to me as well that we mentioned in the guide and also in the the
58:20
research report is that you know when you're looking at and processes and procedures and in regard to fairness you
58:27
know it should be fair to everyone that's affected by it and involved in that
58:33
and everyone that is should feel that it is a fair process and so that is taking
58:40
into multiple people with multiple needs etcetera that everyone should agree that it is a fair practice so thank you very
58:47
much for your questions and I think there might be another question coming in but just we've got one last slide and
58:54
I know that we've Rivera and I really thank you all these for bearing with us and so just the next one just says the
59:03
net actual webinar is on 30 of April or action to prevent enough havior that is
59:10
actually going to be presented to you by an hour two of our and researchers which
59:16
are Johnny Gifford and Mel green they actually worked in our research department and in fact they were the
59:21
authors of rotten apples there are barrels and sticky situations the research report have featured earlier so
59:27
please do sign up for it if you haven't done so already and I've just going to
59:32
have a quick look to support and say let me have a quick look at this question
59:39
and make this the last one before we all go I understand if you have to go and I
59:44
thank you and I am thank you all for attending so very said we are all seeing
59:49
in a current process okay but 19 start differences between those are being kind
59:55
helpful supportive and those who are profiteering from the situation we see
1:00:00
these differences and work and we need to look at ways of sorry I just lost
1:00:07
perception there with me sorry we finish
1:00:12
differencing work and we need to look at ways of out whose behavior is abhorrent unacceptable and not tolerated so maybe
1:00:20
that was just a statement rather than the question so thank you very much for that Carrie um so and everyone's going to breed so I
1:00:28
just want to say thank you so much and for attending and I wish you all well
1:00:34
say well and say safe and it just remains to me to say thank you so much
1:00:39
to my guest speakers and that's Martha Rivera and Adel Thompson and also
1:00:45
Stewart for caring webinar all about and enjoy the rest of
1:00:51
your day thank you very much bye-bye I thank you very much
1:00:56
q thanks a lot

0:00
you
0:06
hi everybody and welcome we're ready to make a start I'll do some slightly later darpa till the make sure we give
0:11
everyone an opportunity to get through on time we've got over 404 people registered today that we're in and
0:18
that's a 404 error so I hope you've got having too many technical problems as we're going through today's session so
0:23
yeah over 400 people registered and we've got and just show that coming through in terms of the participants
0:29
coming through so thank you very much for your time today to spend some amount of your hours or so together and this is
0:36
a webinar series there first thing to mention this is where we're number three of three but do not feel you haven't be
0:43
able to make some or all the other sessions don't worry it's not dependent on the previous sessions and also the
0:49
good news is those sessions number one number two are actually available to get your website as well and this way when I
0:54
will be in time once we've recorded it up put it on the website so don't worry if you are dip dipping in just a number
1:01
three that's absolutely fine if you want never wanted to you can go and grab them as well that will work quite nicely for
1:07
you so today's session is around action to help prevent unethical behavior and
1:12
now I'll get some kind of the objectives introduction shortly but just to make sure you set up on the webinar environment as best as you possibly can
1:19
ideally you hear me right now so I feel that's okay in terms of what you're hearing across the superhighways in
1:25
terms of that just see the deck itself I've just clicked through a couple of slides now I'm back onto the slide rewrite holding so in the very start the
1:32
main thing here you need to do if you can don't where if you can to not be a big problem key card is activate your
1:38
chat function and to do that you just need to click on the icon ta you can see on your tool bar you hover area use your
1:45
mouse you should be able to see that circular blue button when it can a chat bubble you click on there that should
1:50
give you access the chat window on the right-hand side and that means if anybody asks any questions or you see
1:56
want to ask a question yourself you can pop it into the chat and keep an eye on that stream as it goes down the right
2:01
side so it's a great way to interact with us and send the questions we're hoping out of time at the end for a Q&A
2:07
now what you can do is pocket you and there your question in and I can either ask it at the right time if appropriate
2:14
so I'd like to interrupt the presenter to Clarence a question or ask the actual annotation at that point in time and/or
2:20
I'll hold that question to little bit later on so please feel free to property questions in the chat bar and we'll deal
2:27
with them either ongoing or towards the end so that's our pile and Tim's taking
2:33
it forward as who we've got with us today we've got myself on the left-hand side I'm kind of the radio DJ and the
2:39
house they get the easy job on the left-hand side so my name is Joe Hayden and the commotions learning consultant at the cipa soil home to get the poles
2:46
the chat functions and the clothes success in towards the end so you won't hear too much me once I finish speaking
2:52
up right the very start here and then in the order of presentation because it's always nice to get sentence voices who's
2:57
going to get them Gwen first of all his head of research at ie then give you a quick bio of our presenters in that
3:03
order so Gwen would be at first and she's had a research that the IPE to provide advice and support to
3:09
organizations how to improve the effectiveness different aspects of their ethics programs including that code of
3:15
ethics she writes researchers of the wide range of business ethics topics of the ID our most recent publication is
3:22
embedding business ethics 2020 report and corporate ethics policies and programs which you can hear a lot more
3:28
about in Wayne's presentation first up then our second presenters me Mel dreamer certifies at the cipa G join
3:35
team in 2017 that's researchers limited marries diversity organization
3:41
development and the course at work and a recent working because excess in the emblems on inclusion assessing the risk
3:48
factors for unethical behavior and exploring the future of OD practice and prior to this you open email as a HR
3:54
practitioner of a technology organization where in a variety to connect to our initiatives previous work
3:59
as researcher in employee engagement as well as well-being and Johnny will be
4:05
our third presenter Johnny's the senior advisor for organizational behavior at CRPD is a
4:10
long-standing career and applied research and employment of people management its current interesting job
4:16
quality it could work in these the CEO please UK work and live server and behavioral science insight into aspects
4:23
of HR such as performance management from Johnny direct the CID Applied Research Conference and activity
4:30
evidence-based practice including systematic reviewing of running
4:35
randomized trials his academic member of the CFD and a fellow the Center for evidence-based management so those are
4:42
our three wonderful presenters as we go in through a session let me give you a quick insight of the objectives and our
4:49
part of the Gwen it'll be Mel and then Johnny and actually these objectives broadly
4:54
aligned to each of the three presenters and three presentations as we're going through the first session objective for
5:00
today define and recent research into ethics and codes I'm sure you can see from the backgrounds and again great
5:08
deal of overview in terms of research and ethics and codes number two broadly in terms about middle sections they are
5:15
the three is about identifying key areas and exploring the sticky situations that are linked unethical behavior and then
5:23
finally we'll look at describing the extent which unethical behavior is due to rotten apples and actually you put
5:29
two and three together you'll hear more about our COPD report there and the rotten apples might include individual
5:35
factors such as mood and personality so without further ado and the potential
5:41
right to Gwen and she'll do the lion's share of presenting another section okay
5:47
going just part of the rights over to you you should be good to move through the slides yes thank you very much here
5:54
thanks for having me today on this webinar and I'm really pleased to be talking about codes of ethics because
6:00
this is something that is really core to what we do at the Institute of business ethics in here and this why they just
6:05
put a catalog information about some information about who we are what we do for those of you who may not be familiar
6:12
with the ibe so it was love the Institute was established in 1986 with
6:17
the aim of promoting high standards of business behavior based on ethical values and this is something that we
6:23
very much very much hold to today as well and to achieve this purpose there's
6:28
a variety of activities that we do as you can see here on the on the slide and
6:34
in particular head of research so I look after the publications and the surveys
6:40
that we run at the Institute some of them including the one the stewardess
6:45
mentioned now the embedding business ethics is quite long sending one the
6:51
first time that was run was 1995 so and it's really interesting to see how
6:57
they're all our codes and ethics program has evolved since then and but really I'd like to encourage you to go on our
7:03
website to have a look because all our servers are available for free download so if you want to have a bit more of a
7:11
insight into the results please do feel free to to have a look on the website
7:16
but before we get into the actual results and share I share about some beta about cos of ethics with you today
7:24
I'd like to run a quick poll a quick question to see how widespread called
7:30
the ethics are amongst our audience today purpose so just open the poll so
7:36
you should be on his opponent function if for any reason you can't don't worry that's all going to get a good number of
7:42
people through the poll to give us a sense check what the results are looking like just like now we've got about 112
7:49
for 113 it's just going up in fact I'd probably go up like you speak in and you
7:55
won't put in the chat from reason you can't poll you could do that but your response in there as well but you don't need to sub C that's fine I'll just read
8:02
out the questions again just in case anybody's got problems getting a visual on this one does your organization have a code of ethics or similar document as
8:09
publicly available on the website free choices nice and easy yes/no or you don't know not sure so
8:18
when we've got term over 75 people through the polling booth apology just
8:24
finding the right button or contemplating your answer there will be another one later sometimes people a bit quicker second
8:30
time around so I'll close it down and we should be able to see the results pretty shortly
8:35
takes a few minutes for the poll to collate all our scores
8:41
you've done now we should be able to get a sense check a point across three scores for the three answers amongst our
8:48
group today when it's 3 to 1 seconds pretty much coming through she comes here
8:57
them but that's really interesting so I can
9:05
see the 38% of you have that said yes that the organization has accord of
9:12
ethics that is publicly available on the website and which is slightly lower than
9:18
the results tomorrow that's the research which I can show you now here and so
9:24
this is a map of Europe based on and research that we did on the website of
9:30
the largest listed companies which is probably why and the results differ a little bit
9:35
comparative oh and and as you can see cause with ethics have become a really
9:41
common and element of a company's approaches to ethics and also one thing
9:47
I'd like to point out is the vacay apparently is the country with the lowest percentage of companies they have
9:53
a code of ethics which is probably a bit surprising for some so if you have any comments about that please let me know
9:59
I'll be really interesting to hear your views on that as well and another element that I wanted to point out on
10:06
this map that we put there together and with the presence of a code is the presence of core values and the reason
10:14
for this is that we have seen an evolution not just in the presence of a
10:19
code for example when we did our research in 1995 I remember the reading
10:25
it there were there was a section that explained in the views of basically was an interview with the CEO and they
10:32
explain why and codes of ethics were not useful so for a company so probably
10:38
today we wouldn't see something like that in a publication and nowadays but
10:44
basically we've also seen an evolution in the nature of the code so
10:50
it used to be in 1995 when we started it used to be basically code based on books
10:56
so codes of conduct with a list of rules for people to follow whereas with the
11:01
time going by we've seen an evolution in this size document that have become much more based on values rather than rules
11:08
and this is something that is reflected also in our survey and our research that we did in the follow-up interviews that
11:15
we did for this report because for the first time since 1995 a code is not seen
11:21
anymore as a just a document to provide guidance to staff but as a way of creating a shared and consistent
11:27
corporate culture and actually and a code is also really really key in for a
11:35
for company's ethics program in general so at the IB we have designed this
11:41
framework there you can see on the slide now and this is basically the product of
11:46
the work that we've done with different organizations of all sizes and we have identified these different elements of a
11:53
company's ethics program as you can see as I mentioned everything starts with the ethical values which are then
11:59
translated into a code of ethics that explain how these values apply in practice to the specific organization
12:05
but the code of ethics is necessary but not sufficient so a code on its own and
12:11
we have seen that is not enough to ensure that ethical standards are embedded at all levels in a business so
12:18
there are other points and other elements they're important to keep in mind when we think about code of ethics so we don't have just a PDF on our
12:25
website but we have something very supported by a communication campaign I speak up line by strong leadership by
12:33
training and also by a regular review process
12:38
and on the one hand we had this research
12:44
that we did amongst large organizations but then we wanted to understand a bit more what employees think and their
12:51
awareness of these instruments and tools that companies have for example a code of ethics so in a different survey that
12:58
we conducted we asked employees and we asked them whether they were aware that their company and provide the different
13:05
elements of an ethics program as I list rated just a moment ago in the in Div
13:11
III work so this discharge that you can see in this light now is taken from a
13:16
different survey that we run last time it was run in 2018 but again this one is
13:22
done every every three years as well and it's called ethics at work funnily
13:27
enough and so we can see that there's a big discrepancy between the percentage
13:33
of companies that have a code of ethics and the percentages of employees that say that actually they are aware of this
13:38
code of ethics and offered by their organization so again the sample here is
13:45
slightly different so there might be an explanation there in terms of size
13:51
companies for example but this goes to show also how important it is that
13:59
employees are also communicated and engaged with the ethics program of the
14:05
organization so in the evolution of yesterday of the codes of ethics that we have seen since 1995 there is also an
14:14
evolution of the ethics program and the other supports in tools and as you can
14:19
see from this slide there's still a bit of room for improvement because
14:25
fifty-nine percent of employees are aware that the company offers a code of ethics but when you look at the other
14:31
indicators of the other tools or building blocks of an ethics program and they're not as widely known and
14:39
recognized by employees as the code of ethics so if we don't really pay attention to disaster if you don't make
14:45
sure that they occurred is actually supported in that sense we run the risk a little bit that is just another
14:52
document on the website that is not really used or made useful to employees
14:58
and does it work so we decided not to look
15:04
at the the code of ethics in isolation for the reasons that I just explained but we tried to look at the impact to
15:11
the n ethics program so a code of ethics with all the surrounding elements can have on the culture of an organization
15:17
so we decided to look at the companies we're implementing the conservative as I
15:23
just mentioned and ethics at work we decided to look employees that said that they were aware of all the four building
15:28
blocks of an ethics program and we compared their responses to employees
15:33
that were not aware of any of the four elements of an ethics program so we see
15:38
when a code of ethics speak up line training are provided and the perception
15:45
of culture improves significantly so for example and please say the honesty's practice more often and the organization
15:52
is seen as more responsible in their business dealing in this one I think it's quite important because
15:59
[Music] it's basically employees are more willing to talk about shondor to report
16:05
misconduct that they are that they are witnessing the desi and in particular
16:11
they're also more likely to be happy and satisfied with the company's response so it's definitely a step in the right
16:17
direction in terms of creating a shared and consistent corporate culture and that we mentioned earlier at the
16:23
beginning and the companies seem to be willing to create and the companies seem to be you know the base say that they
16:30
want to use a code of ethics achieve the idea of an ethical culture based on values for all their employees
16:39
what should the code of ethics look like so this is something that we work quite a lot on as the IDE we work with
16:46
organizations of all sizes or sectors and types to help them improve the
16:51
effectiveness of their ethic of the code of ethics so obviously there is not you
16:56
know a template that can be downloaded and used by all organizations because the code is something that is very much
17:01
the product of the culture of the specific organization however we have
17:07
identified a few elements that I think are quite interesting and we think should be always included in a code and
17:13
maybe we can go back to some of these a bit more in detail in the Q&A part but
17:19
now I just wanted to give you a bit of a just some another view of some of these elements so for example an endorsement
17:27
from the senior leadership because the code needs to be seen is coming from or with endorsement from the top of the
17:33
organization the CEO and the board need to show that it is important for them and an explanation as to why the code is
17:40
necessary so it's not just a list of rules that we have decided that you have to follow but it's useful for the
17:45
organization it contributes to the success of the organization an explanation of what the company's values
17:52
are which is useful because it helps go in a little bit beyond just the rules and support decision making in those
17:58
situations that might not be covered in the code itself because it's really hard to put into the code every possible
18:05
situations that might arise but can actually work as a decision-making
18:10
guidance for employees in those situations and then again this can be supported by a framework for ethical
18:17
decision making sometimes this just takes the form of a series of questions to ask yourself when
18:22
you face a difficult situation but it's just the way you've stop and reflect on the situation that you're facing the
18:29
dilemma that you're facing is an employee and then finally some information about how to raise concerns
18:35
and speak up about wrongdoing because this is really really important to make sure that employees are engaged and they
18:42
feel part of an organization that wants to listen to them is interested in their issues in their problems and also acts
18:49
to address those issues that employees raise so this is a bit of an overview of what
18:56
occurred of ethics I why it is important and why it is useful and I look forward to more discussion later in the in the
19:04
Q&A session and I can pass on to Mel for the next presentation
19:21
okay I'll feed everyone and mail green hair from the ICG and Stuart's already
19:27
introduced me so rate safety much more about myself and thanks very much for joining us today and thanks to Glen for
19:34
that really interesting exploration of your recent research into co2 that's it so in my slot today I'm going to talk a
19:43
little bit about the situation but it starts with a ship which we've affected
19:50
affectionately called sticky situation so I'm going to delve into some of our recent research into the topic and talk
19:56
a little bit more about how those situations and difficult aspects of our
20:01
work it can make it difficult as to pape
20:07
so as Stuart mentioned at the beginning of this webinar this is actually a series of webinars so if you've already
20:14
ended the two in this series you're probably familiar with this already but I'll just talk a little bit about it for
20:21
those of you who are joining us you today so we recently at the CIPD
20:26
conducted an evidence review of an a behavior at work which is called rotten
20:31
apples odd barrels and sticky situations a review of a network-based behavior and
20:38
what we've also done and alongside that and my wonderful colleague Tina Russell
20:44
and Allie weeks of have also created a guide based on that evidence review so
20:49
what this evidence review was really all about was understanding some of the factors that influenced unethical
20:56
behavior at work so we often hear especially when corporate scandals make
21:01
the news that things like a few rotten apples are to blame for unethical behavior or perhaps a poor company
21:08
culture and of course there's some truth in that those things are important but it's also really important that we
21:14
understand on a more granular regular day-to-day level what some of the risk factors that we face in our day to day
21:22
work because of course there are things like practices and policies individual
21:27
differences but also it can impact on how we act in our workplace so this
21:32
research was all about uncovering that doing an evidence review for the best available evidence on those factors and
21:38
what we did in that this research has identified nine areas and that's what makes up a report and the guts well so
21:46
if you're interested in looking in more detail at research and the guidance let me go and have a look on our website I
21:53
think we just paste those linked within this in the chapter
21:59
so as name of the report suggests we highlight three broad areas that are
22:04
influence on a behavior and those are the rotten apples so their individual
22:09
choices that we make at work the bad barrels or hopefully good barrel speed I
22:15
haven't touched up over this is a vibration and also the difficult
22:21
decisions and situations for the sticky situations at work that make our life
22:26
it'll be difficult and today Johnny and I'll talk about those difficult decisions and situations and also the
22:32
individual choices or rotten apples part this research you
22:39
so thinking about his situation what are some of the key things like influence
22:46
our behavior at work and I think it's really important before I talk about these is they're very much influences or
22:52
risk so one of these things alone might not guarantee that unethical behavior is
22:57
going to happen in a workplace is however it might make it more likely for in conjunction with another risk factor
23:04
make it more likely to happen so we found a number of situational factors
23:10
that influence behavior or in fact reduce it like as well so on the
23:17
positive side of things we found that when people had varied roles and accountability in the design into their
23:23
jobs as well as things like checks balances and reminders to behave ethically ah reduce that likely have
23:30
maximal behavior on the other hand there are a couple of negative factors to think about that might increase the
23:37
likelihood of unethical behavior and those are things like highly competitive roles or marketplaces as realistic goals
23:46
that are tied to monetary reward there's also aspects like time pressure
23:53
and monotony in jobs which is an interesting one so if someone has a
23:59
monotonous role they might actually be more likely behavior than and lastly
24:05
being from me from the park configure decision so for example if you are a
24:11
decision maker and you don't see the end result of your decision it might be more likely that you'll make a decision that
24:17
has an ethical impact in the end and what I'm going to do today is talk a little bit about some of those in more
24:24
details specifically the goals rewards and the competitive aspects of job design that might influence behavior
24:34
before we jump into that though I really like to hear from you all and wonder if any of those factors resonate with you
24:41
so have you seen any examples perhaps in your own workplaces moving their name or
24:46
written responses of a behavior where things like pressurized rolls targets or
24:53
anything else have made a difference and in links on a behavior in your life
25:01
thanks Mel just people typing in their quick responses in the chat don't worry about spelling and grammar by the way
25:07
everyone we've been a quick question maybe we just give it a quick cover before we get the responses in the chat
25:12
the question is how we hasn't taken any research into groupthink at senior
25:18
leadership level and unethical behavior in large organizations are kind of like that the groupthink
25:24
large organization context so within this research we didn't specifically
25:30
look at groupthink per se but I think that's a really interesting there's a really interesting point there linked to
25:36
that which is about accountability so of course when decisions are made in a group there's a lack of support and
25:43
engagement if the latter part cause of decisions linked to group things and
25:50
that something that we've definitely highlighted as a potential risk factor so if there's not checks and balances in
25:56
place for example or perhaps there's a lack of accountability and that can make
26:02
a difference yes seeing this great question it so thanks for the question as well so it's a
26:07
couple of responses meanwhile coming through on the chat further to this exercise here yeah this is an
26:14
interesting report things like time pressure caused by unrealistic deadlines and time pressure in general there seem
26:22
to be a factor in lot of jobs which definitely rings true in some of our research and as some pressure on
26:28
managers to deliver and to influence them to pressurized our there's another
26:34
interesting point about here of business owner being profit driven and so profit with main driver and reinforce the idea
26:42
that you need to do what necessary to preserve that's really interesting examples that highlight some of the
26:49
different outcomes of our decisions so perhaps the business outcome of profit
26:54
is more important than any potential epic welcomes whether that's employee
26:59
well-being and or something else that impacts your customers will be ng user
27:04
so lots of really interesting examples there
27:10
so thanks for responses I'm going to pick up on a couple of days actually it myself as a visa forgotten people
27:18
examples of what our research tells us which very much echoed some of the things I'm seeing in the chapter so the
27:25
first risk factor ISM will that competitive environment and which is linked to organizational goals so I
27:32
think it's also worth noting that when we talk about an area we often think think things like fraud sabotage they're
27:39
things that negatively impact and users or even employees but people also do
27:47
make decisions in act in a certain way it might be unethical but actually in the short term could benefit the
27:54
organization so very much linked to that profit outcome for example and there's some really interesting research in this
28:00
area that suggests that if organizations are in a competitive market unethical
28:05
behavior that pro the organization so for example might help them get ahead of the sales but maybe not gonna make
28:12
that's the way it's actually more likely that that's going to come and not only that there's other research that
28:18
suggests that in that sort of situation managers might be hesitant to reprimand
28:24
people for that behavior especially results being short terms benefit for that company and that's also the case if
28:32
that person might be a top performer so the research also suggests if someone's really good at that job let's say
28:38
I have another target if they do something that had to be unethical they might be less likely to be reprimanded
28:45
serve attention there between outcomes such as profits and it's not just
28:52
external either also the note about competitive environment internally so as
28:58
research that suggests that there's competition to be the best so let's say an employee knew where they were at a
29:05
performance curve and a we're going to be evaluating that all this at the end there's some research to suggest that if
29:13
that's coupled with manager or was that without people getting a bonus and that
29:18
can encourage sabotage against work or better representing own work and just to
29:24
reiterate as well but these are all experimental studies that give us a really interesting insight and so it's
29:29
also worth noting though of course a target alone or competition alone isn't going to call the tactical behavior but
29:35
there are certain situations that make it like and the same read reward as well so
29:41
we've done research into the impact of reward sweet potato love it with
29:46
this is really sweet which is all about the impact or reward and targets on
29:52
people's behavior at work and those same evidence to suggest that strongly youth
29:58
all that's willing to pay I'm really high and difficult to reach targets can have an impact on ethical behavior so
30:05
for example they're examples and ambulance drivers within this research
30:10
that suggests that when there's a target of impatience and quickly I be let's
30:17
drive it would prioritize patients nearer to them rather than
30:22
I don't need other services a very extreme example and but it really shows
30:28
that what your award and how you reward I can influence people's behavior and of
30:33
course that's what we do in the first place but it also means if we're not making our rewards clear and not aligning them
30:40
with multiple outcomes that could be an issue there's also specific purpose of
30:46
research that suggests that difficult goals can lead to things like misreporting so employees want to make
30:51
sure they hit their goals they might miserable what they do however when an opportunity for promotion was at stake
30:58
this wasn't the case so in other words if there's more than one outcome that's
31:03
important to employees there isn't just link to reward for example or monetary reward and that can offset some of that
31:10
but really it's all about whether our reward strategies and targets might mean
31:15
that people try and hit the target that missed the point so think about the ethics and their long-term outcomes of
31:21
their behavior so great if you hit your sales target but if it's done in a way or not on a long-term sustainable way
31:28
and it's not going to have good long term and there's a really clear real-life
31:33
example which some of which we've talked about in the chat as well so things like the Wells Fargo Cross yelling sounds
31:40
this is a quote from one of their senior staff members our team of us do have
31:46
goals and sometimes they could be blinded by a bow so within this those sorts of issues as mr. lang and fortune
31:53
and products so we can meet their target and again targets alone don't cause this
31:59
and however there was also a couple of it couple of whistles load about their
32:04
culture and their wider wired organizational values so in combination a seem to have an issue and we can see
32:11
similar outcomes weird things like the PPI scandal which is meant to high proficiency sterling silver in terms a
32:18
chess trust scandals where targets don't work odds with patient care so
32:25
importantly what does this mean for practice so within our research from our guidance we also provide some kind of
32:31
lessons and pop types of petitioners the main takeaway really is when it comes to
32:36
the situations and job design it's be aware of these reps factors and manage them so these are some of the risk
32:43
factors like the spoken part like over the top of it I'll try to you purely financial anthems or when things like
32:50
how much lated payer it's date by operating in a competitive market a workplace or people are under pressure
32:56
what some of those other things I talked about at the beginning which didn't have time to delve into today things like
33:02
monotonous roles or having active
33:07
defunding of or the impact of your decisions will be
33:15
some classic see what that might look like so that might be things like considering what behavior is
33:21
incentivized or rewarded and what your reward strategy is and thinking about how bold and targets can be related to
33:28
multiple up organizational values as well as profit
33:33
then like the other metric central you should be measured on as well such as long-term outcomes help know so to put
33:40
support in place and decision making especially when and we made in a pressurizes I've taken a little bit as
33:46
well so using things like checks and balances frameworks to help guide decision making or perhaps even using
33:53
moral reminders to regularly communicate with employees about the role of their
33:59
they have in being ethical that could also really help so that's it
34:06
for me on a sticky situation side of the research and more in our report which
34:12
talks a little bit about some of those other catches well under this Johnny now
34:17
who's going to talk about the rotten apples that can influence unethical behavior
34:31
just past the presenter you should be good to a a sawed-off meet and take it on to the next set of slides
34:46
you still owe me Johnny's here this alright be comfy currently
34:55
you so my zero not sure where Johnny is so
35:02
to skin them without the two maybe he's having some tech problems you
35:11
I hope you can hear me now I was having problems indeed and thanks very much
35:18
Stuart and thanks Mel and when james johnny gifford i work in research team
35:25
CIPD along with mel and i'm going to finish off by talking about one of the
35:31
other aspects that we talked about in our in our research so the idea of rotten apples obviously whether we're
35:39
talking about tax avoidance or bribery and corruption sexual harassment
35:45
obviously we've had recently as well as bullying and unethical leadership we can
35:50
all think of high-profile individuals from Harvey Weinstein to Bernie Madoff
35:57
to Philip Green or whoever who have been pulled over the coals for being an
36:05
particularly unethical I think it's on
36:10
the one hand it's we need to recognize that it can be convenient for organizations or even regulators to say
36:17
that ethical breaches are a problem of just a few rotten apples it's not
36:22
characteristic of the organization as a whole so it's enough for us to sort of
36:28
sacrifice a few scapegoats we don't make it need to make a larger cull and please
36:35
you know we don't need any heavier regulation that can be a typical
36:40
response of organizations when there is a ethical crisis and on the other hand
36:48
we can't deny that individual factors do have an influence on how people behave
36:56
and so we've looked at this within the evidence base so again as Mel says
37:02
looking at the high-quality scientific research in this area to see how two
37:08
areas affect people's ethical and unethical decisions firstly the less
37:15
permanent aspects so mood that essentially and secondly the more
37:22
permanent aspects of personality see which more stable relatively
37:27
permanent traits
37:32
so mood first of all and I have to come clean and say that this is actually a
37:38
typo and on the slide I didn't go to surly so apologies for that the first
37:43
bullet should say happy managers are more likely to agree to unethical
37:48
requests which is possibly counterintuitive bit surprising it also
37:54
says that fear and frustration are linked to unethical behavior what's
37:59
going on with this why happiness the root of the problem is not about how when you're in a positive mood or
38:06
getteth mood it's about how passive or active your your mood is so passive
38:14
states which include fear frustration and also happiness can lead people to be
38:22
more likely to engage in a unethical behavior for example because they want
38:27
to sustain their current current
38:33
feelings of happiness or they want to take the path of least resistance so the
38:38
kind of research that we're looking at here an example is a study of 60 yards middle managers who responded to a range
38:47
of different ethical scenarios in a lab type environment so first of all their
38:53
affective states were measured that's to say how they were feeling at the time was measured then they they conducted
39:01
these these tests by responding to the scenarios the the researchers could
39:07
gauge how willing they were to engage in our unethical behavior and the kinds of
39:14
things that happened were that the participants were asked by a supervisor to backdate a shipping log in order to
39:22
increase profits stuff that they clearly knew was unethical but they were being
39:27
asked to do by their supervisor and visit these are the kinds of findings
39:32
that it that it threw up that negative and positive affective states can
39:40
influence people's unethical behavior so one of the things to encourage here
39:46
is for people to have to take responsibility for their actions to feel
39:51
responsible to have what we call an internal locus of control which means
39:57
that you believe that if your actions make a difference these things are more
40:04
likely to lead to ethical behavior so what about the more permanent trades
40:10
when we think about personality there's a number of red flags we see for example
40:20
competitiveness how eager centric people are how impulsive they are when they've
40:26
got willpower or self-control whether they have a kind of moral relativism so
40:32
they they don't think that absolute morals really care for anything in
40:37
particular what gets highlighted in the research is what's called the dark triad
40:42
so the dark triad is three sets of personality traits which include
40:50
Machiavellianism so this is about disregarding morals having just being
40:56
willing to manipulate deceive lie being less concerned with morals in the first
41:02
place it includes narcissism so having high levels of pride low levels of empathy
41:10
big ego basically feelings of grandiosity and thirdly psychopathy
41:18
so being impulsive and little behavior
41:23
not feeling remorseful feeling callous about your victims or other victims
41:31
now what we need to emphasize is that these traits are personality traits that
41:38
can be measured they don't make people guilty of unethical behavior they make people more
41:43
at risk of unethical behavior especially when we're talking about situations that
41:50
benefit them so they can benefit from from cheating or as I've seen in some of
41:57
the comments there are pressures from unreasonable targets or lack of
42:03
resources or working to time frames that are - that are too high pressured so
42:10
these are some of the the risk factors that you know whether we like it or not do like this there is a question though
42:18
of what do we do with this information would it for example be appropriate to
42:26
use measures of personality to inform
42:31
decisions about in recruitment we'd be interested in your views on this so
42:38
we've got a poll which stool on college & batley that question would you test
42:46
personality in recruitment to judge the risk of unethical behavior and - this is
42:53
we've got a nice picture of niccolo machiavelli director if you interested
43:01
just open up the polls this for responses for potential responses yes for many roles and then another yes
43:09
response but for a select few roles know or don't know it's about half of you
43:16
managed to hit your buttons this is just coming through now it's great question
43:21
Johnny by the way looking forward to ER seeing a the responses and be your response to the responses
43:29
yeah no I'm interested to see them as well
43:34
okay look at about 70% roads give it another few seconds just to leave it open and it does take a while infant to
43:41
callate the background and not publish it I just closed it down there so apologies if you just hit the button
43:50
Oh another 10 seconds Johnny for it to show up on the screen
43:56
70 yeah black 70% people managed to get those through so quite a high number of
44:02
people that also should be good good reflection responses
44:09
okay ooh a question coming through from some
44:15
test to be manipulated I think they probably can but that there are in a
44:23
pretty good tests out there right responses Rajanna can you see them
44:29
effect okay so can we do we give percentages on those we got we got the
44:36
numbers they're yet to actually put out quite a mixed bag a lot of people not committing fair enough it's a tricky
44:43
question um but more saying yes for a few select roles than anything else and then either
44:51
side of that some saying yes for many roles and some saying no I'd be
44:57
interested in what people would see as the roles that would be appropriate for
45:03
this we don't have a clear research on on this particular area but the kind of
45:11
thing that I could imagine would be roles in which there is a strong moral
45:17
leadership component to it so most obviously sort of spiritual leaders for example but I want I'd be
45:24
very interested to know what what other people's thoughts on it where we ended up it on this is that the primary thing
45:32
to do in with these understandings of both mood and personality is to gauge
45:40
the risk certainly don't prejudge people but we want to be aware of these
45:46
influences so that we can we can be aware of people's weak spots the
45:52
situations in which they'll be most susceptible to unethical behavior we
45:58
need to understand the jobs that they're doing what pressures do these jobs put
46:03
people under what can we do with this more practically is to do things like
46:10
target reminders so reminders to behave on to behave ethically to be a very
46:16
effective way of increasing ethical behavior and also you know you can know
46:23
what when the pressure points are in what roles and essentially when to keep
46:29
an eye on people a bit more the other thing that we would emphasize more practically is autonomy and voice
46:38
as I said before we when people have sense of agency responsibility they feel
46:46
empowered then then more likely to behave ethically so you want if we
46:51
increase the level of autonomy that people have within their jobs that's
46:57
likely to help that you know stop them feeling disempowered and likely to follow the path of least
47:06
resistance and so on secondly we can give people a voice
47:12
and I think this is important for two reasons firstly it again encourages that responsibility that encourages the
47:18
active mindset and secondly it's a channel for raising concerns and where
47:24
needed for whistleblowing so that's all from me and I think I will hand back to
47:33
Stuart now and if I can
47:38
brilliant face donate just before we do that there anything you not so much whether there is one question I think
47:44
it's going to be relevant to your sections it came in about a minute ago there's quite a bit of chat going from
47:50
the poll which is put into one question in there it's hard to spot with this treatment Russians and observations
47:55
wouldn't this be tested in the ones one interview scenario based on the hiring managers unconscious behavior in regards
48:02
their views on unethical behavior as a few comments either side of that either
48:08
if you've got chance to see those Johnny now that you've taken your eyes off the slide sort of so to speak yeah so I'm I
48:15
don't I don't think that's a sensible way to progress and if we are going to
48:22
include aspects of personality in in
48:28
recruitment and selection and I think we need to be really really careful about
48:33
that as I said it's not what I would recommend is to go to solution but if
48:40
you were you want to make sure that you're using as robust tools to do that as possible and so I'd say you know
48:48
first of all you need to identify is it a job in which an ethical risk is
48:53
especially important it's it's sort of critical beyond what it would normally
48:59
be obviously it's important that we're all ethical and secondly if you're if
49:05
you are going about it if you are testing that you don't want to do it in a face-to-face unstructured interview
49:11
you want to do it through established psychometric tests great ok there's one
49:18
more where's two questions come in would you not firstly use psychometric testing
49:24
and then you dive a bit deeper in the interview so joining the two together both the testing and the interview
49:31
um I probably would steer clear of the
49:37
latter in terms of using a face-to-face semi-structured interview to try and
49:45
gauge someone's ethical risk as an
49:50
individual no I think you know if you get a very strong from sense from those
49:57
those together that they they may be highly narcissistic for example that may
50:04
be that may make them less appropriate for a role in in many ways
50:11
and but if you if what you're trying to do is assess ethical risk I would stick
50:18
to those robust psychometric tests
50:24
another question come in and that's rather than keep on with Johnny let's let them off there I can see if Mel and
50:30
or when want to take this one as well it's a great question it's a certain big question as well so we're because it
50:36
will be recorded that this is currently April 2020 which will mean a lot to people further down the line as we
50:42
progress through lockdown but if you think the current crisis situation the economic situation risk of job loss etc
50:49
means it is more likely serious unethical behavior Saudi Authority want
50:54
to take that either Gwen mal or Johnny it's now mr. Joe
51:00
might jump in and then work great this is Madison there as well let me give you an additional I'm reading them applicants people can't see them yes
51:06
only here in the firm I'm yesterday where employers were applying for further money's not passing on to
51:12
employees who are without pay so is an addition from a different participant
51:17
there so and chompin already said that's fraud so sorry Mel got bigger great things in so I think that's a really
51:24
interesting question so a stuart noted obviously this is a really unique time
51:29
are we purposely not talked too much about poverty under McCandless because
51:34
this is this research wasn't done in that context and also we will stop
51:39
recording of this webinar sir they applicable in years to come so it's certainly something I was sick of versus
51:46
I was walking on my flies there's been a lot of discussion has in there about how
51:52
people respond to the crisis how business respond to this crisis and I think it's probably too early to say
51:59
whether ill called more unethical behavior but I certainly think is there are some risk factors there but I also
52:05
think there's quite a lot of scrutiny at illumine businesses so there's a lot of
52:10
calling out and coverage of enough business practices so I think it'll be interesting to see how public scrutiny
52:18
or perhaps I should ice businesses into doing the right thing
52:26
yeah noted there if there is some examples of all behavior already but
52:33
arguably some of those businesses didn't have that business practice before the pandemic so it's happened surprising
52:39
that they continue to do so now yeah that would be my reading of that I
52:45
just chip in there so the example that I saw there was employers taking advantage
52:51
of the furloughing monies to make a profit not passing on to employees us
52:56
someone says defraud Yulin and if you're doing that then presumably you'd be
53:01
you'd be likely to behave that sort of way anyway but I think that the question
53:07
of are we likely to see more unethical behavior now is probably yes I think any
53:13
kind of high-pressure scenario and raises the risk of unethical behavior
53:19
this is one of the core sort of risk factors that we need to be aware of
53:24
people are trying to make meet targets make profit and when it becomes more
53:31
difficult they may become more desperate yeah so if I can't just add one one
53:38
thing to that I definitely agree what with what's being said so far but in our
53:43
research as well was done before the current crisis started about going through the interviews I happen to
53:50
reread a conversation that I had with one senior ethics and compliance practitioner because one of the
53:56
questions that I asked it the interviewees was what do you think will be the most challenging issues that you
54:03
will have to face as an ethics practitioner going forward and this one person said to me I think it will be
54:09
changed because we need to help our organizations to manage change in a way that is in accordance with the values
54:16
that we have we our ethics ethical standards so I think that reading that sentence in the present context and it
54:24
was really right because things are changing and it might be the after this this current crisis some of our ways
54:32
some of the ways in which we used to work before we have to change as well and I think that probably this shift
54:38
that was talking about from rules to values will be really really important because particularly in a situation
54:44
where there isn't presidented so we don't really know what to do very often
54:49
we can't say what they would do last time because there was not a last time so having these ethical standards and
54:55
values that have guide us and having a structure within the organization that
55:00
can support all employees but also a probably leadership in the organization
55:06
to avoid all different types of behavior that that were mentioned and actually to
55:11
guide the organization in a way that is in line with the values I think will be very important
55:19
yeah that's a great word once beep sure basis many social situations when
55:24
there's the previous examples good practice but they're certainly for that guidelines that we can stick to when
55:31
were making decisions yeah great effect all just dive on one
55:37
observation come through and I'll share it privately certain on of us this is why personality is so important that
55:42
those who do it or do any opportunity often it doesn't you have to do anything with pressure so yeah well said there
55:50
we've got one question coming through if I could pick up or not I would say that's a little out of sync with with
55:58
the research findings that we come up against which is we find which is that it's much more about risk factors I
56:05
don't think that you can you can identify someone's personality you can
56:11
identify someone's personality reasonably accurately but that doesn't mean that they are always going to
56:16
behave unethically it's much more about their their propensity to behave unethically so I take that last comment
56:24
with a pinch of salt personally right thanks Johnny
56:29
we've got one is that let's just do a quick question which will be relevant what could just be talking about but more broadly it's about communication
56:36
and what are the effective ways of communicating the code if there is one or one developed to employees what's the
56:44
best way to communicate our intentions I think there are many different ways
56:50
and probably one that I think is quite useful is to involve line managers
56:55
because encouraging line managers to communicate the code to employees to have for example the ethics moments at
57:02
the beginning of the main things for instance of finding some time and with their team to address an ethical dilemma
57:09
discuss it and see where they can find guidance in the code will be very very
57:15
useful ways also to make sure that line managers that are so important for the
57:20
embedding business ethics in an organization are aligned with the core values of the organization and as well
57:27
and then they're able to support their employees to do to do the right thing
57:34
great thanks well we're on time nurse is there anything else we need to get across either from Gwen is just been
57:40
speaking mail or Johnny before we wrap up I think one thing that I would want to
57:46
highlight in addition to what Gwen's just said is that assuming that there are process is that for accountability
57:54
within the organization one of them one of the really practical actions that
57:59
employers can take and is to give moral reminders so to think about what points
58:06
to give those reminders and and communicate them effectively so whether
58:11
that's you know through through online or through their the forms that people
58:17
use however it is to think about the most pressing points at which to to give
58:24
more reminders and then remind people of their duties at that point that can have
58:30
a big impact on ethical behavior great thank you.thank saw a nice passing
58:38
comment dad that storytelling should work as well which i think is a good observation as much as a good question
58:43
great thank you everyone avert to a round of applause for Gwen Mel and Johnny as well as for everybody on the
58:49
session today we really appreciate your time energy and enthusiasm as well as your comments towards the end the
58:55
questions going to be really really interesting to see that I've also posted the recordings where they are on the
59:01
website from sessions number one and two and the same link that I post it will be when this session will be held if you
59:07
want to go through it again pick up on a particular section slow it down a little bit take a look at slides or even better
59:13
share it with colleagues as well so they've got a wider application of what you've seen here which is really really
59:18
important so hopefully you can do that I'll leave the session running we'll put those all down to the muting and talking
59:24
if you want to scroll back to the chat you can grab that last your URL as well as the URL to writing those questions
59:30
throughout so if there's something that caught your attention with it URL you can click on that straight away and all
59:36
sort of copy it so you've got those references going forward but thank you very much for those who returned in this
59:41
session I'm sure many of you been on sessions one and two as well so thanks very much all a lil' wrap up the session
59:47
there
59:54
you